Anish Kapoor 访谈

                
                
                
                
 MD- In an age that art expression is highly motivated by personal or auto biographical elements, your work stands out by challenging the very craft of art. Do you consider yourself to be a formalist?
在我们这个时代，艺术表达常常源自于个人的或自传的因素，而你的作品因为致力于挑战艺术的“工艺”而与众不同。你认为你是一个形式主义者嘛？
AK - I think autobiography is a very interesting but rather minor art form. The art that I admire does something more than tell my little psycho biographical story, who's interested? We are here for a few minutes, and then we are dead. If art is to endure it must have to do with much more than that. Now maybe the only way we can get to bigger subjects is through psychobiography. I hate formalism, because formalism implies a death of the subject and the subject is the only reason to be an artist. Not that I have something to say, I have nothing to say, the whole reason to be an artist in fact is to uncover, in the process of working, some deeper truth. As Bruce Nauman said, the artist reveals deep mystic truth, but to reveal deep mystic truth implies that one knows what they are, the point is that one does not know what they are, an artist may stumble upon them maybe?
我认为自传是一种很有意思但却比较次要的艺术形式。我所崇敬的艺术不仅仅讲述我小小的心路历程，谁会感兴趣呢？我们只存在片刻，然后就死了。如果艺术能够永恒那么它一定要做到更多。现在也许唯一能使我们实现更大的主题的途径就是心理传记。我恨形式主义，因为形式主义意味着主题的死亡，而主题是做艺术家的唯一理由。并非我有什么要说，我无话可说，事实上，做艺术家的全部动因是在工作的进程中去揭露一些深刻的真相。就像Bruce Nauman所说，艺术家揭露神秘的真实，但是能够揭露神秘的真实意味着他知道了那些谜底，可关键在于一个人并不能知晓这些秘密，一个艺术家也许能够以某种形式邂逅它们。
MD- Did you ever study human perception?
你研究过人类的知觉吗？
Did I ever study it? Only empirically, only in process. Do you know there's a wonderful Christian idea in which Thomas stretches his hands out to try to touch Christ's wound and Christ says ‘Noli me tangere' (do not touch me). What your eyes see your hands will always try to affirm. Much of dealing with the non-material is about this confusion between the hand and the eye, the ear and the eye, when the thing that you look at is uncertain, your body demands a kind of readjustment, it demands certainty. Something happens to where you are, to space; time changes. Time, I think, becomes slower. The mystical truth of art is time.
研究？经验至上，全在过程里。你知道基督教里一个奇妙的观点：Thomas伸出手去想要触碰耶稣的伤口，耶稣说，别碰我。你总是想用手去验证你用眼睛看到的东西。我许多表现非物质的作品就是关于这种手与眼之间的不确定的关系，或者耳朵与眼睛之间。当你所看着的东西不明确，你的身体要求某种再调试，它需要明确。你所在的空间里发生了些什么，时间改变了。时间，我认为变慢了。艺术的谜底是时间。
MD - Your work has reached highly Architectural complexity, you are known for working to a level that's way beyond the artist's hands and reach. How do you relate to the process of art making into that scale which leads me to some words that have been said about you: massive, immense, gigantic, sublime, and then size matters?
你的作品像建筑般繁复，你以远远超越艺术家的双手所及的工作方式而闻名。你将艺术制作到如此巨大的规模，大到让我不由引用那些常被用于描述你的词汇：海量的，巨大的，宏大的，壮观的， 你认为尺寸很重要吗？
AK - Scale is a tool. As Barnet Newman said very eloquently: "scale is not a matter of size, it is a matter of content":. So scale is not about how big a thing is but is about how meaningful a thing is. The other part of the immaterial or non material is the idea of the immense. The immense inspires us all. Eyes wide open if you like. I think it's not so far away from the problem of time. I think of Caspar David Friedrich's tw o figures standing on the edge of the cliff and looking at the immense landscape, they're lost in wonder, they are lost in time. Standing there in a timeless space, I think scale is the same thing.
规模是工具。正如Barnet Newman不容辩驳的表述：规模并非在于尺寸，而在于内容。因此规模不在于一个事物的大小而在于它的意义。另一部分的非物质系列作品的主题就是关于宏大。宏大触动我们。眼睛大大张开。我认为这也与时间的问题紧密相关。就像Caspar David Friedrich画中的两个角色站看山崖的边缘看着宏大的景观，他们在遐想中迷失，在时间里迷失。站在永恒的空间里，我认为规模也是这么回事。
MD -You were born in India to a Jewish Family, you are English now, and you are Buddhist. Where did the concept of belonging appeared to you? Where do you belong?
你出生在印度的基督教家庭，你现在是英国人，佛教徒。你对归属的问题如何看待？你归属于哪？
AK – I was born in India, my mother is Jewish, and we were brought up as much Jewish as anything else. We felt we were foreigners. I'm used to being a foreigner.It is only now in the last ten years since my children have been with us and they define themselves as British I begin to wonder maybe I am too. It is a strange thing, I am used to the idea of not being included in that way. I quite like it of course. It has its advantages.
我出生在印度，我妈妈是基督教徒，我们作为基督教徒被抚养长大。我们感觉自己是外国人，我习惯了做外国人。只是最近这十年我的孩子们和我一起生活，他们将自己定义为英国人，我因此开始疑惑，也许我也是英国人了。这很奇特，在此类问题上我习惯了不被纳入其中。当然因此我获得了安静。这也有好处。
MD Do you see yourself as one that interprets or translates what the work wants to be or as someone inventing it from scratch? Do you listen to your works?
你将自己看做你作品的传达者或者翻译者吗？还是一个将作品从草稿中发明出来的人？你会倾听你的作品吗？
AK – I do not translate. I repeat processes again and again. Continually re-working is a process in fact of listening, re-iterating. Re-watching, looking again and again and again. The same problems. Repetition comes to be not just a repeating as the word says but also a kind of a meditation on a particular condition.Duchamp would say "The effect of being an artist on the artist is more important than the work is"
我不翻译。我重复过程，一遍一遍。持续地繁复工作是一种倾听的过程，再书写，再观看，看一遍一遍又一遍。同样的问题。重复并非只是像字面意义这样单纯，重复也是一种特别境况下的冥想。Duchamp说，成为艺术家这个行为本身所产生的效果比任何作品都重要。
MD - Let's talk about light. You've been working a lot with pieces that are based on light. The ancient Greeks used to believe that light comes out of the eyes to illuminate the world. Your work with light emanates light. In concept what is the source of light for you? How do you deal with light?
 我们来谈谈光吧，你做了许多与光线有关的作品。古希腊人相信光线来自我们的眼睛，用于照亮世界。你的作品也与光有关。在概念中你的光来自什么？你怎样处理光？
I always felt very concerned with the viewer. I feel I don't make work for somebody else, I make what I make for me. Yet I am very concerned with the viewer, in a sense that art is very good at intimacy and very good at a specific address. Most of my works demand that you look at them from a particular place. That seems to say that there is this very specific quite formal address. The work demands a certain kind of passage. That of course doesn't answer your question of light, but it does say something about the ritual of looking.
我很关注观者。我感觉我并不为别的什么人做作品，我为自己做。但是我很关注观者，专注点在于艺术可以在某个特定情景下更好，更亲密。我大多数的作品要求观者从一个特定的位置去看。似乎可以说存在着一个正式的情景设定。作品需要某种特定的通道。这当然没有回答你关于光的问题，但是它指涉到了观看的仪式。
I would say that more than light, yes, much of my work is about darkness. Which is a form of light, or at least the absence of it. Which is related to the idea of light
我想相比较于光线，我做了更多与黑暗有关的作品。这也是一种光，至少是光的缺失。
 Light is something if you like, that we wake into. My instinct it's that it is not an internal condition. Light is cultured and educated, while darkness is uncultured and uneducated and deeply within in our unspoken story. From Dante to Freud to the Devil, we live, if you like, an internal darkness. The fact that we know it, each one of us, is both frightening and intimate.
光亮发生在我们醒来后，而非永恒的情景。光亮是教育和文化的结果，黑暗则是不受文化和教育驯服的，是深刻隐藏在我们内部的无言的故事。从但丁到弗洛伊德到撒旦，我们活着，黑暗永恒。事实上，我们每个人对于黑暗的感觉都是恐惧交杂着亲密。
I've made works over the years that deal with that internal darkness. The whole of western philosophy is based on the idea that Plato sat in the cave, metaphorically, looked up to the light and said "let there be progress". Freud looked at the back of the cave, and maybe we're still looking at the back of the cave. Maybe there in the uncanny darkness in the drain, under the toilet, under the bed, it is much more frightening and revealing, where things begin.
几年来我都在做着与永恒黑暗有关的作品，整个西方哲学都建立在这个思想基础上：柏拉图坐在象征意义上的洞穴里，仰头看着洞口的光亮说，前进。弗洛伊德回头望向黑蓝的洞穴里，也许我们现在仍在做一样的事。也许神秘的黑暗在井底，在马桶里，在床下。黑暗如此另人敬畏并且意味深长，它是事物的开端。
I have made lot of work with black and blue, particularly blue, because blue is a colour that much more deeply reveals darkness than does black. From a phenomenological point of view your eyes can't quite focus on blue.
 我用蓝色和黑色做了许多作品，特别是蓝色，因为蓝色比黑色更能深刻地揭示黑暗。从现象学的角度来说，你的双眼不能不专注于蓝。MD You did study perception …你研究过知觉。。。（刚才还说没有）
AK - I think the interplay between the phenomenological, the perceptual, and the psychological is the heart of what makes art. Over the last so many years almost everything I have made is red.Red is a colour of the earth, it's not a colour of deep space; it's obviously the color of blood and body. I have a feeling that the darkness that it reveals is a much deeper and darker darkness than that of blue or black.
我认为现象学，知觉，和心理学之间的互动关系是艺术的核心。过去的许多年里，我做的所有东西几乎都是红的。红色是地球的颜色，它不是太空的，它显然是血液与身体的颜色。我感觉红色所揭露的黑暗比黑色和蓝色更为深刻和浓重。
Turner's idea about colour was that colour was to be viewed in its relation to white, light always towards light. Everything I ever made I think, goes the other way. From red to black. It's the way that red recedes into darkness. It's the way that blue becomes dark. That is mysterious. I'm not interested in composition. I want to find absolute conditions. if I make something red it's not red in relation to something else. It's red in the same way that when you put your hand into the water it is wet. So I want the red as red as water is wet.
关于透纳那件作品的颜色是这样构想的：它是在与白色并置的状态下被观看的，光亮永远朝向光线，我所做的一切则向着另一边，从红到黑。这也是红色如何衰减到黑暗，也是蓝色如何变成黑暗。这是谜。我对构成不感兴趣，我想要一种绝对的情况。如果我做了红的东西，这红必须是独立存在的。它是红的就如同你把手放进水里那水是湿的。我想要的红之为红就像水是湿的。
MD - Why do you say that you have nothing to say?
你为什么说你无话可说？
AK - I'm talking about a process here. I'm talking about the content of the work. When I say I have nothing to say I mean literally I have nothing to say. Of course as a man I feel very strongly about politics, about the environment etc. If I had something to say as an artist I think I would be a bloody awful artist, I might as well be a journalist.
我讲的是过程。我讲的是工作的内容。我说我无话可说我是说我没有想要用语言表达的。当然作为一个人类我对政治，环境等等议题都有强烈的感受。如果我作为一个艺术家我需要用语言表达，那我就是最差劲的艺术家，那还不如跟你一样当记者。
If you like, the truth that the artist looks for comes from the interaction between the process of making and the meanings that arrive out of that process. One has to listen to them. Then there's something, maybe to work with.
艺术家所寻求的真实，来自工作过程与这过程所产生的意义之间的互动。你必须听它的。然后有了点什么，你与之共事。