Legendary Blue Note insiders talked about Francis Wolff and the art of his photography

Last January at the International Association of Jazz Educators Convention at the Hilton Hotel in New York, photographer Susan Rosmarin organized a panel discussion on the jazz photography of Francis Wolff, entitled "Inside Jazz". The panelists were Rudy Van Gelder, the legendary recording engineer; Ruth Lion, widow of Blue Note founder Alfred Lion; Michael Cuscuna, jazz producer and researcher and Jimmy Katz, photographer. The panel was moderated by historian and jazz writer Dan Morgenstern. A transcription of the discussion with photographs appears here. Photographs were provided by Susan Rosmarin, Ruth Lion and Rudy Van Gelder.
This session was recorded live at the International Association of Jazz Educators 28th annual international conference. Held Jan 10-13th 2001 in New York City.
The panel is moderated by Dan Morgenstern.
Dan: Thank you very much.
Dan: We would like to dedicate this panel to the memory of a very great man who unfortunately left us on the last day of last year his name was Charlie Lourie and he was among many other things a great connoisseur and collector of photography, especially Jazz photography and was co editor, with his partner and co founder of Mosaic records, Michael Cuscuna of the two books of Francis Wolff's photography, which we will be talking about and anybody who knew Charlie knew one of the most remarkably honest and dedicated people that it's ever been our pleasure to know. We will all miss him and his legacy will be with us forever.
Frank Wolff was Alfred Lion's partner in Blue Note. He came to the United States both of them were among the many gifts that Adolf Hitler bestowed on the United States. They both managed to escape from Nazi Germany. Frank actually made it, almost on the last boat out.
Ruth: 1941
Dan: and joined his friend, his boyhood friend, Alfred Lion, in operating what became perhaps the greatest jazz record label of them all.
Among our distinguished panelists is Dr. Ruth Lion, who first met Alfred her husband to be and Frank when she was hosting a radio show called "Life Begins at Midnight"
Ruth: Yes
Dan: On a New York radio station. She will be able to tell us a lot about what kind of a man Frank Wolff was.. She has a distinguished career of her own as a producer of Jazz radio and video, she has won a number of awards and she is a remarkable lady.
Dan: Rudy Van Gelder is undoubtedly the most famous engineer in the history of jazz. The only one who has a series of CD's, which is currently in production, dedicated under his name. He is a legend in his own time. He's beginning to be acknowledged, three days ago, the leading newspaper in New Jersey, the Newark Star Ledger, devoted a great article to him, I believe it was called "The House That Jazz Built". That refers to his marvelous studio in Englewood New Jersey. Over the years it has been my pleasure occasionally to observe Rudy in action and he is absolutely one of a kind. He will be able to tell us things about how Frank Wolff worked in a studio environment, which is where he took the majority of his wonderful photos.
Michael Cuscuna is the co-founder of Mosaic records that of course is a label that specializes in re-issues marvelously produced and packaged. He is also a distinguished producer of live sessions; he has done many of those over the years and is still doing them. He is something of a wunderkind, I first met Michael when he was about 18, at that time I was editing some magazine out of Chicago called "Downbeat", I think, and here comes this kid and his hair was bright red at the time.
Ruth: Bright, Bright, Bright Red.
Michael: Down to my shoulders.
Dan: It was unbelievable, he already knew more than anyone has a right to know about Jazz, and by now he knows even more. Michael Cuscuna.
Jimmy Katz's photography has been ubiquitous in these past years. His work has appeared on, I believe, something like 200 recordings and in many magazines, newspapers and journals. He is a really distinguished addition to the first rank of Jazz photographers. Jimmy Katz.
I want to start with Ruth. What kind of a man was Frank Wolff? He was somehow; Alfred was such a strong personality, what was the relationship between him and Frank?
Ruth: I believe that Frank was Alfred's alter ego. They fit better than brothers. They knew what each other was thinking before they had to speak in fact they didn't have to speak they just understood. They were close, close, close friends.
Dan: Frank had already been involved in photography in Germany, right?
Ruth: Yes he was a consummate student of Photography. As a young man he studied at professional level and was continually adding to his expertise.
Dan: In a way he was kind of like the ideal Jazz photographer because he must have been very sensitive to the music and he never seems to have sort of imposed himself on the environment. He was just there.
Ruth: He was there, an
d he was waiting, and he was waiting for that emotional second and then poof he got it. He did that for 22,000 photos.
Dan: Amazing.
Ruth: Amazing endurance and passion and interest. It was a dedication.
Dan: In a way that was his whole life, he was a life long bachelor, right?
Ruth: Yes.
Dan: I believe he lived in New York City.
Ruth: He lived in sixty third street and second avenue and we use to have, sometimes when we had a little time we'd be down on fourteenth street at a restaurant, have a very nice meal and then we'd walk all the way, I thought it was a long walk, from fourteenth street to Frank's apartment and we talked about only Blue Note. Which was fun.
Dan: He was also quite a record collector he had a wonderful collection.
Ruth: Oh was he! Frank, I kind of thought that Frank would liked to have produced more but maybe he felt, hey I take suchÖoh no he was very modestÖhe never said I take great pictures but, I think he knew he did. But, I have an idea that he might have liked to produce more because he knew the music as intimately as Alfred. Alfred knew the photo's he knew what would fit to the new album and they rarely had arguments about what the photo would fit, however, Frank was one of those modest unobtrusive people of the old school, a real gentlemen and whatever Alfred said, that was it. Which I thought was very kind of him. I saw him many, many, many times, maybe he didn't one hundred percent agree but he say's well Alfred's the guy that's a dynamo, so let him go.
Dan: OK.
Rudy, you of course think are not exactly enamored of photographers descending upon your studio when recording is taking place. You don't want them clicking on your take, but, Frank seems to have been a very amenable presence. Right?
Rudy: One of his great skills, I think someone just mentioned it is that and he was the most successful with me to the point where I wouldn't even notice him. As a matter of fact the one time, I think on one of the Blakey sessions. The studio itself was relatively dark and Frank would be making pictures during the session. So I commented to Alfred, well Alfred, Blakey is the thunder and Alfred (FRANK?) is the lightning and that's the impression you get. You reallyÖHe was everywhere but never noticeable and, of course, during the yearsÖ.the camera he used was a twin lens reflex, the Roloflex with a flash he would hold up above his head and there's a pc cord between the flash and the camera which was always breaking, so we would go behind the console and I would solder the connection for him during the session so he could continue making the pictures.
Ruth: Oh my gosh!
Rudy: And we use to have discussions about photography and where he should go. There was a time when the Hasselblad was coming into fashion and he discussed about the possibility of maybe switching to that camera. But, he decided and we had talked about it many times he said because he couldn't actually see the flash at the time of exposure he would stay with the Rolly. That's the camera he used always. But there were two different places, there were two different studios, this really started with Frank in Hackensack, which was a small place, and of course the backgrounds which have been seen on so many records now became part of the image that he was making, but when we moved to Englewood Cliffs the studio was very large and not too well lighted, general lighting, so that everything, seems as though he was operating in the dark. And then that whole characteristic of the dark backgrounds with the close flash that become developed in the years that we were there but he was just a wonderful person and I knew him right till the very end and it was just aÖÖand by the way it's an honor tonight to be here with Ruth.
Ruth: Thank you. It's an honor to be here with you Rudy. You just bring back happy happy memories!
Dan: If you want to learn more about what Rudy has to say about Frank and his photography in the recently published second book of photographs from Frank's legacy. The one that is calledÖif I can find my glassesÖ..What is it called Michael?
Michael: I don't remember. Blue Note photography and Francis Wolff are all in the title somewhere.
Dan: Right, right.
It is. You can find an ad for it in your program and incidentally the cover of your program is a Francis Wolff photograph. A wonderful one of a very young Tommy Flanagan and Thad Jones.
Michael: I think that was Tommy Flanagan's first record date. Wasn't it? I think it was.
Dan: '56. Right? Yeah yeah.
Rudy, How many Blue Note sessions have you done?
Rudy: Well, I think actually the one to answer that would be Michael. Michael would be the..he's the expert at that. He would know. Can you put a number on that Michael?
Michael: Well, I guess you would have to say aboutÖabout 26 a year from 1953 till 69 or so..a steady flow of about 26 to 30 a year.
Rudy: Sounds right, sounds right to me.
Michael: So, do the math.
Dan: And Frank was at every one of those I would imagine, pretty much. Oh yeah yeah.
Rudy: Actually a few of those, some of the Horace Silver records, Alfred would be on vacation and Frank would be the producer.
Michael: Did he shoot when he had to produce too?
Rudy: I think he did yeah. Yes.
Dan: OhÖThe book is called The Blue Note Jazz photography of Francis Wolff. That is the second volume. The first one is called The Blue Note Years, the Jazz photography of Francis Wolff both of them were edited by Michael and Charlie Lourie.
Michael when you first became aware of how much there was of Francis's photography were you surprised?
Michael: I was because the way Reid Miles used his photo's it was a more utilitarian usage to serve the graphics and until Alfred started, Alfred told me that Frank had given him all his photographs and that they were in trunks and he didn't want to open them up it just brought back memories of days gone by and a dear friend that he lost. He was so in love with what we were doing at Mosaic that he finally cracked the lid and started to get into them. He would send us photo's for booklets and I was really astonished at the quality of the photographs and finally after Alfred passed away, Charlie and I went out to Ruth's house in San Diego and convinced her we should archive them and start to make use of them. We went to a Broadway department store and bought two steamer trunks and filled them with photographs and Fed-Exed them back to New York. It was absolutely astonishing. All the photo's have not been found but 98% of them were there and the mass of photographs is really astonishing. When my wife was archiving them all and cataloging them she had pointed out something that I never thought of that there's never been an instance where there's such an important body of recorded work with just complete photo documentation of practically every event. The amazing thing when you look at the contact sheets is the consistency of photo to photo to photo of quality that he was doing and they were all candid. So many of them could be ranked as portraiture and to get magnificent portraits of that level in a candid on the run situation is truly extraordinary you know, I mean Usef Karsh had a lot of time for each shot he took and Frank was taking them on the fly and it was really extraordinary. It's an amazing archive.
Rudy: May I say something?
Michael: Yeah, sure.
Rudy: That's true and it's often not mentioned that all his photographs were extemporaneous photographs. That was not a posed studio situation and you can compare them to anything which was and they're magnificent.
Michael: I remember that once we were doing a Gonzalo Rubalcaba concert at Lincoln Center and I was on the stairwell talking with Dianne Reeves about the show and a guy comes up the stairs..I don't know how many of you saw "Putney Swope" or remember..there was a guy Mark who kept showing the photographs..so this guy comes up in the middle of our conversation and whips open a box and starts showing me prints and introduces himself and I thought, man, this is Frank Wolff's son. It was just incredible the quality of his photographs and that was the first time I met Jimmy Katz who is an extraordinary photographer.
Dan: That makes a great lead in to what I was going to ask Jimmy, as a photographer what do you see in Frank's work that makes it stand out?
Jimmy: Well, I think if you look at his work what's important is you have to sort of see him in a couple of different lights, first of all you have to see him in terms of the history of documenting the music. Now everybody looks at his work and you know thinks it's very wonderful and of course it is, but I think what you really have to understand is first that he's one of the really seminal figures in the history of documenting the music in terms of Herman Leonard, Bill Gottlieb, William Claxton, Francis Wolff and these are guys whos work is so profound that it really defines an era and it also defines a lot of musicians who weren't documented very well by other people. So for instance if you think in your mind of what it was like to be in New York in the 1960's and listen to jazz you almost only think about his images, you only think about Francis Wolff's images and what that means visually is that his impact is so extreme that you can't even see pictures of say, the young great saxophonist George Coleman or Charles Tolliver or some of the other people who weren't that well documented by other photographers. You can't see pictures of these guys without seeing them through Frank Wolff's eyes now this is extraordinary, I mean, this is incredible. You only think of Lee Morgan. You only think of a young Hank Mobley through his eyes. The other thing that I think is so wonderful about his work is it's really about quality and intensity, I mean there's tremendous intensity there you see what's going on when the music is being made and you feel like you're part of it when you look at these pictures it's not some sort of abstract thing. The other thing is that if you're a record collector and that's how I of course came to his photographs it's really wonderful to have a tactile document in your hand while your listening to the great music. I mean it brings the music alive to see a young Joe Chambers or to see a young Herbie Hancock and some of these musicians really weren't that well documented so to see his work it's magical. Just magical. And of course it fits in with the whole concept that was going on I think at Blue Note Records and Mosaic of course has carried this over of quality, everything is to serve the music, I mean they got the best engineer, they got, you know, the best designer, everything is super high quality.
Michael: You also in knowing most of these people and then looking at the photographs it's amazing how much of their personalities is captured. I remember, once, Charlie and I were looking through photographs andÖ.. Tony Williams first record date, this seventeen-year-old little kid and Charlie looked at this photo and said "You mean he had that attitude even then?" It was true you could just tell Tony's personality just from the photograph. It was extraordinary.
Rudy: Which was that? What was the name of that? Do you remember?
Michael: It was a record that didn't come out until later a Jackie McLean session called "Vertigo". It wasÖ
Rudy: Tony's first.
Michael: Yeah Tony's first record.
Rudy: Tony's own?
Michael: It was a Jackie McLean session. I remember also, you could probably address this more, but, I always wondered, I mean, the last thing you want at a record date is a photographer because you've got so much to think about, time, money, everything, getting the music down but I asked a lot of musicians what it was like having Frank around shooting all the time while there going about trying to document music. Most of them said that it was so constant that after a while they just didn't even notice he was there and Walter Davis told me that once, Frank would shoot photos during rehearsals, run throughs but not while the tape was rolling and Walter Davis said that one day he kept shooting after Rudy started rolling tape and at the end of the take Alfred screamed over the intercom "Frank you're clicking on my record!" SoÖ. How was it with Frank there when you're trying to get a record being made?
Rudy: After a while, and of course this covered a number of years it got so that he would just automatically do that and you would just assume that the pictures would stop when the tape was rolling and when I would slate the tape he would just stop working and after a while you take that for granted but when he didn't notice, when he was so deeply into his thing and he didn't notice that we were, it was an accident on his part and Frank didn't let him get away with it either.
Michael: Alfred you mean?
Rudy: I mean Alfred didn't let him get away with it, right.
Michael: It was amazing too that he got so many angles. He must have been fairly physical about this.
Rudy: Yeah he would walk around.
Michael: He does a lot of unusual angles in his photographs
Rudy: He would move around a lot.
Michael: Did he ever knock over a mike stand?
Rudy: NoÖ.Yeah, occasionally he wouldÖNo not to that point.
Dan: It's also amazing, when there's a group of people the depth of focus, nothing is ever out of focus, it's always clear and there's one thing that strikes me about Franks work is that..it fits with what Ruth said about him.. is that there are certain photographers and this is nothing against them but, there photographs are like finger prints you can tell it's a photograph by so and so. Franks work does have a personality but it never is a personality that imposes itself on the subject its always the musicians first. It's a very natural kind of thing, nothing is posed you don't have a feeling that he said "Oh you stand over there" and then backlit it somewhere or "Smoke a Cigarette", so in that sense it's great jazz photography. I think if it works better for me than the mike there is a possibility here to see some of Franks work on slidesÖlets see how this operates.
Dan: Now you'll have to tell us what this is.
Ruth: Oh yesÖThis is a favorite picture of mine..It is Frank on the very right and Alfred just to his right and three girlfriends enjoying a picnic in a park in Berlin and this was a happy happy time, they were just teenagers these two young men and but, they were already hooked on jazz, running everywhere they could to get anything that was jazzÖand that's a favorite because it was a realÖ
Michael: About 1925 or so?
Ruth: About 1925, Michael, you know? Wasn't that a pretty picture?
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: There was a famous record store in Berlin where you could find jazz records. They imported them at that time. You could find America recordsÖLets see what happens next. Ah! There they are.
Ruth: Oh yes, they were more mature here.
(Laughter)
At this time. But, the personalities you can see, they loved what they were doing. Frank not only was he the master photographer but he also did everything else at Blue Note. He did the royalties, he did the liner notes, he kept Alfred from screaming and carrying on. There you see Alfred in his absolute glory when he'd answered the phone it must have been ecstasy for him to say "Blue Note" "Blue Note". So there they are those two guys when just some very small success was creeping in with "The Sidewinder". It was Mitchell?
Feldman. Feldman who knew the date of "The Sidewinder" that it became a big hit. I think he said it wasÖ
Michael: '64
Ruth: 1964. Well, absolutely for that little office that was Blue Note it was like Wooooh! The first hit. Yeah, so that shows that success at that time. Oh and by the way that smile that you see on Frank that was indicative of this beautiful character that he had. He was a person of integrity, honesty, a real great, great friend. I'll say I hoped I was a good friend to Alfred but I have to almost say that Frank was a better friend, he was there forever. This photo shows Franks pride in the CD album partner that we were just speaking about "The Sidewinder" and that gentlemen to Franks right I'm almost sure is Alan Grant that was the first coast to coast record show on ABC.
Michael: Yeah, that is Alan.
Ruth: Next to Alan is Duke Pearson. Duke Pearson was one of the people who really helped make that transition from the type of things that we were listening to a little earlier, "Idle Moments", Grant Green, things that were more like "Blowing Sessions", Duke had an idea to move Blue Note into the mainstream and so they started doing great things like Donald Byrd. Do you remember that one?
Michael: Yeah.
Ruth: With the Colridge singers?
Michael: Colridge Perkinson.
Ruth: Yeah, I mean Duke was the one that said "Hey Al, c'mon let's move forward" and so Alfred was all worried and everything, but they did it and so with of course, if I'm correct that album that Frank is holding thereÖand he'sÖ He's saying "Hey were making it!" you know and Blue Note became like a little middle sized company were as it was just a little tiny little company almost facing bankrupt from the beginning, bankruptcy. So that's a prize picture for me.
Dan: Are there anymore or is that it?
Ruth: Ahhhhhhhh. You want to speak about that Michael?
Michael: Ah well, I don't know when this was taken but this is them with Sydney Bechet who actually gave them there very first hit "Summertime" in 1939. It was actually recorded right before Frank came over. He was, even when they got into modern jazz, they were very close to Bechet and he was somebody that they kept recording right up until the time he moved to France. As a matter of fact, they did some sessionsÖat..yourÖ Did they do any?
Rudy: No, No.
Michael: He moved to France by then.
Dan: Sydney was the sole remnant at Blue Note from the traditional past. In other words, the label started, as most of you know, it really started with Boogie Woogie and then moved into Bechet and Frankie Newton and then came a gradual transition to Swing and then of course came Monk and Modern Jazz. While they stopped recording traditional artists they remained loyal to Bechet and Bechet was kind of a anomaly in a way but a very good one and continued to record for Blue Note well into the modern era. It's a very good picture of Sydney there he looks very happy which he wasn't always.
Ah, Horace.
Ruth: There's Horace Silver who was with the company 27 years. This was sort of another plum for Blue Note because it made the cover of Cash Box magazine and the story was about Horace and of course Alfred and Frank were always enamored with the Orient and I recall, by the way, the album was called "Tokyo Blues". Remember that Rudy?
Rudy: Yes.
Ruth: Yeah, yeah, and so that was a big, big, big thing because Blue Note was a tiny little company and there were loads of jazz company's at that time so for them to get the cover that was something else, of course Horace loves that too it was very memorable for him and of course Frank is looking very distinguished.
Michael: That cover photograph was not taken in Japan; it was taken at the botanical gardens here in New York, by the way.
Ruth: Yes, Yes, but what I meant was just it was promoting, you see the girls there with their Japanese
Michael: Geisha.
Ruth: Garments on.
Rudy: Where did Horace get the fan?
(Laughter)
Ruth: Yeah, you know, Horace is very creativeÖanyway it turned out to be a really great picture.
Dan: Is that the office where that picture was taken?
Ruth: You know I'm not sure where that picture was taken. I just know it was promoting "Tokyo Blues". I have a little sideline I would like to say since were speaking about Franks involvement with everything that went on at Blue Note. And, how was that? I'm sorry it slipped my thoughtÖbutÖOh yeahÖ.There was never a dull moment at Blue Note it was just bppp bpp bppp the phone ringing, people running back and fourth, everything, you know, preparing for the next session, rehearsals, all kinds of things happening and so the distributor from Tokyo was coming and here I'm kind of the new kid on the block and I didn't know very much about the Orient, but, they rolled out that red carpet for that distributor, because they were selling very nice records in Japan. They weren't selling them that much in the United States so I think that might in part have been the origin for that "Tokyo Blues". I'm not sure but you know, so much was happening you just couldn't keep track of everything but I love that picture.
Ahh.
Rudy: This is a picture that I made of the three of them. Actually this was, for some reason which I can't recall, someone wanted a picture of the two of them together and this was I believe you said it was a Jackie McLean date when we talked about this
Michael: YeahÖI forget nowÖWalter Davis.. Walter Davis Session.
Rudy: For some reason they wanted the picture so Frank and Alfred asked me to take the picture. So, it was with Frank's camera, Frank's film and Frank's flash and it does not look like any Frank Wolff picture.
(Laughter)
Many times people ask me what kind of equipment do I use to record, you know. I'll show them this picture and tell them what good would that do.
Ruth: It's a gorgeous picture.
Rudy: There are a couple more in here from the same set up. If you want to change the picture.
Ruth: Ohhhhh.
Rudy: With the ever present pencil always in his hand.
Ruth: Gorgeous, really beautiful. That's the essence of those two guys, look at the rapport between them. Wow!
Michael: Did Frank always wear a tie to the record dates?
Ruth: I don't think I ever saw him without a tie.
Rudy: I don't think I ever saw him without the sweater.
(Laughter)
Ruth: Isn't that Jackie?
Rudy: Yes, Jackie, Donald and then Frank and Alfred.
Ruth: Oh my gosh, that's the way it wasÖ..just like that.
Rudy: Excuse me; the pictures are usually sharper than this but the projectors a little out of focus.
(Laughter)
Ruth: That's a nice picture.
Dan: Jackie of course is Jackie McLean, who is being honored at this event on Saturday.
Ruth: Really?
Dan: Yes.
Ruth: Oh, how nice.
Michael: Who could have made a living as a comedian; he's one of the funniest guys.
Dan: What have we here?
Rudy: I don't know? This is Donald's Trumpet, it's just anotherÖI made these from a proof sheet, by the way, which they gave me, so.
Ruth: But, you're seeing Frank in the essence, that was Frank, very introspective, highly intelligent, very sensitive. He didn't speak very much.
Rudy: That's right.
Ruth: But he spoke through his camera.
Rudy: He had a great sense of humor too.
Ruth: Oh my gosh, did he.
The End.