5岁就移民英国、背着上述标签的英籍作家石黑一雄，赢得了今年900万瑞典克朗（折合约740万元人民币）的诺贝尔文学奖奖金。 授奖辞上写着： “他的小说带有强大的情感力量，揭示了现实世界与虚幻深渊的连结”
Charlie Rose: Kazuo Ishiguro is here. He is considered one of the most important fiction writers of our time. His books include "Never Let Me Go" and "The Remains of the Day" which won the man a Booker Prize in 1989. "The Buried Giant" is his first novel in ten years. The "New York Times" has called it the weirdest, riskiest and most ambitious thing he's published in his celebrated 33-year career. I am pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Nice to be here.
Charlie Rose: Congratulations because of all the people aresaying about this. My question is -- is it about appropriate for you to take ten years to complete a novel?
Kazuo Ishiguro: I'd like to do it more quickly but, you know,I'm doing the best I can. And there's no problem with the quantity of books out there, you know --
Charlie Rose: You're going for quality?
Kazuo Ishiguro: I wouldn't want -- it's not necessarily goingfor quality, but I would like to -- if I put something out there, whether it's good or bad, I want to slightly change the landscape, you know, slightly change the skyline of the pile of books out there. So whether people like it or not, I want to offer something a little bit different. So until that gets into play, I don't feel I'm ready to put the book out there.
Charlie Rose: You know some people believe this is a radicaldeparture for you.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes, it comes as a slight surprise that peoplethink it's so different because I always come at these thingsfrom the inside. I never really -- I'm a bit like someone's trying to build kind of a flying machine. Before aviation got going or these guys used to make kind of funny flying machines in their backyard. I feel like I'm a bit like that. I'm just trying to get this thing that will fly and for a long time it doesn't fly and I'm putting this piece on, too. Finally, it kind of flies.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Kazuo Ishiguro: But I don't really know what it looks like. It may look really weird to someone coming at it.
Charlie Rose: But do you know what it is or does it have to besomething in your mind? Is it, for example, a love story?
Kazuo Ishiguro: It's certainly a love story. I knew that it's a love story but it's a love story of a certain kind. Because when we say love story, we usually mean a courtship story, a story of two people coming together and the story ends when they declare love to each other. This is not that kind of a love story. I think there should be more love stories like this one. It's about the decades, the years. It's the long distance of love and it's about all those years that you struggled to keep the flame alive. And this is about, you know, a man and a woman who are determined to stand by each other right to the end.
Charlie Rose: They suffered from a kind of amnesia.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes, well, this is kind of what I had. When I was talking about getting my flying machine together, this is one of the main problems. I start off with a kind of a story that I can almost express in two or three lines in the abstract, and I often can't find the right way to put it off, the right setting. One of the things I started off with is I want a situation where there's a whole community, a nation suffering from some kind of selective memory loss. And the nation has to decide, as a nation, you know, do they want to remember everything. Maybe there's been something very traumatic buried in the recent past and maybe there was a very good reason for these things being buried. And --
Charlie Rose: And do you have a point of view on that?
Kazuo Ishiguro: My only point of view is that it's very difficult.It's very difficult to generalize. Because I think there are situations -- let's take say France after the Second World War.
Charlie Rose: A good example.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I don't want to pick on France.
Charlie Rose: No.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I'm being polite here. I'm in the United States. I don't want the talk about any buried giants in American society. I'm sure, you know, we can all --
Charlie Rose: Absolutely.
Kazuo Ishiguro: As a matter of etiquette, I'm here as a visitor, so I'm going to talk about France.
Charlie Rose: Right.
Kazuo Ishiguro: So the French, after the Second World War, what are they going to do with this stuff? You know, they seem to be on the winning side but they spent a lot of their time collaborating with the Nazis, sending French Jews to the gas chamber without much help from the Germans,betraying each other to the Gestapo.
Charlie Rose: Exactly.
Kazuo Ishiguro: What do they do with that? How do they move on from that? Maybe there is something to be said however outrageous, however unjust it seems for the position that -- the goal to say let's all pretend that we were all brave resistance fighters and let's not just visit this question for a few decades. There will be a time perhaps when we're stronger when we can face this but right now if we look at our recent past we're just going to tear each other to pieces. We'll go -- at least we'll go communist. There might even be civil war. The society cannot hold. And you look at situations, say like -- this was, I suppose, the starting point when I started to think about this. You think about situations like what happened in Bosnia in the 90s or Kosovo or Rwanda.
Charlie Rose: Or Cambodia.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Or Cambodia. Yes. You have situations here where people seem to have lived together, different tribes, different communities have managed to co-exist at least for a generation. And then some kind of societal memory was deliberately reawakened to mobilize hatred and violence.
Charlie Rose: Do you start with that idea? That situation and then create characters?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Kind of, yes. I start with that situation, but the other thing I was very concerned about, that same question about, you know, do we want to remember certain things? Are we better off just keeping some memories buried? I was wanting to apply it not just to a nation, but side by side with that, I wanted to apply it to a marriage, because I think the same questions apply to a marriage, you know, any kind of long-distance marriage, as it would, I guess, to any long-term, you know, like parent-child relationship, siblings, but that same question arises because most relationships that go on for a long time. Inevitably there are passages that you agree to just keep buried. All right, that was unfortunate, you know, it was painful, let's just --
Charlie Rose: Move on.
Kazuo Ishiguro: -- let's just move on. But the couple at the center of my novel, they have this very difficult question.Would our love survive remembering some of these things?Do we want to remember some of the things that we have buried? But, on the other hand, if we don't look at these things, and they sense that, you know, their time together is limited now because they're a certain age, if we don't look at these darker passages that we've just put to one side for now, is our love genuine? Is it based on something phony? I think they're the same -- they're very similar to thequestions a large family might --
Charlie Rose: So individuals have what states have.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I think so, yes.
Charlie Rose: A sense of having to --
Kazuo Ishiguro: That question, you know, when is it better toremember, when is it better to forget, is a very difficult onethat applies to nations and to families and to marriages.
Charlie Rose: You know what's crazy about this is thescientific aspect of this. And I'm not knowledgeable about it, but I think there are some experimentations going in trying to understand the brain so that there are things and drugs that can affect what you remember, you know, that can tamper with memory.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Well, that, you see, that kind of thing mighthave been very useful for me.
Charlie Rose: Yes exactly.
Kazuo Ishiguro: At the stage -- I came to a stage, right -- thisis what happens to me as a novelist. I don't write novels in a sensible order.
Charlie Rose: Right.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I start off with a story without a setting. Now, if you had said that to me at a certain point in my kind ofattempt to compose this novel, I might have said, oh, that'sgood. You know, maybe that's what I need. I'll go with that as a kind of a scifi-ish, modern kind of device.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Kazuo Ishiguro: That would give me what I want because I need a situation where everyone has to make that decision.Do we want to turn back, you know, the force that allows usto forget or, actually, is it terribly useful. Do we depend on forgetfulness to carry on? And, so, that's a very good -- what you just said there is very interesting. I didn't, in the end, decide to go down that kind of path. I decided to go back into some kind of mythical past where I thought I could rely on very ancient kind of storytelling devices so I could have kind of a supernatural mist.
Charlie Rose: It's worth looking up. You will find out a number of things as we explore the brain, as everybody does, and the academy and science and everybody else. We're finding out interesting things and that's one aspect of it of which there are many. But memory has been a theme of yours, has it not?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes, I sometimes worry that it's become a bit of an obsession.
Charlie Rose: Yes, exactly. It seems to be
Kazuo Ishiguro: My entire obsessive memory. I think it's probably changed and evolved over the years because when I started to write fiction as a very young man, I think it was in order to remember. I think that's why there is a very intimate link in my mind and in my heart, you know, between writing fiction and remembering, you know, because --
Charlie Rose: How does writing fiction catalyze or stimulatememory?
Kazuo Ishiguro: It's not so much to stimulate memory. I had left Japan at the age five to live in Britain and I think, all the way through my growing up, I had these memories of this place that was very precious to me, and it was the place I thought I was going to return to at some point. I had these memories, and it wasn't like a specific series of memory. It was like a memory of a whole world, a whole kind of way ofbeing, a whole life and a whole atmosphere and a whole group of people. And as I got older, I realized that that very personal Japan that was inside my head was somewhere I couldn't go to in the plain and it was also fading with every year that I got older. And so I think started off my whole writing fiction career by actually wanting to preserve these memories, you know; I couldn't preserve them just by writing down facts. I had to actually rebuild the Japan of my imagination and memory in a book. So I think right at the foundation of my writing impulse was this notion that creating a world in fiction was an act of memory -- memory preservation. So I could say actually, now, it's safe inside that book.
Charlie Rose: I have to call on my memory to inform my book.Am I right about that? Your memory is going to have to influence the setting and character development?
Kazuo Ishiguro: I didn't really even have to call on my memory. It's almost like I've got this world that I've built in my head naturally, not because I'm trying to write, but naturallyas a kid growing up, this world builds up in my head. It's a mixture of imagination, speculation and memory. And then I get to a certain age, what am I going to do with it? Do I let it just disappear as the time goes on? If it's a very special place and only I have access to it, I want to actually get it down in some kind of way and I think that was the original impulse, you know. I want to build - - I want to preserve it inside a fictional world. That's how it started. And then I think as I kind of carried on writing, I never lost that fundamental idea that there's something -- you know, writing is something about memory, And I started to look at other people or other characters in some depth, but I always tended to tell my stories through memory. You know, people remembering about themselves, people putting a memory from 30 years back right next to a memory from five or ten minutes ago or two days ago and trying to assess these memories. Are the memories accurate? Are they blurred at the edges or are they being distorted by the person, remember the thing? It's a way of construct ago sense of one's self.
Charlie Rose: And what was the impact of that 14th century poem called "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Not a huge amount -- ok. I mean most of that poem -- I mean maybe not many people watching now know it. It's a very entertaining story. It's a story poem. Most of it is not particularly relevant to my novel although Irecommend people read it because it's a very entertaining poem. I took -- there was just one little stanza. You know, the story takes place in two castles, but there's a little literary like something like a bridge passage where the young Sir Gawain rides from one castle to the other castle and you get a little glimpse of what Britain was like back in thosedays. And the anonymous person -- you know, he's the head of a place. This young man -- there were no inns or anything in those days so you had to kind of sleep on rocks in the pouring rain. I don't know why he had to sleep on rocks. He should sleep under a tree but he slept on rocks.
Charlie Rose: You don't know why?
Kazuo Ishiguro: What really struck me was that it says in the next couple of lines, it says something like, and I'mparaphrasing, it says he was chased by wild boar, by wolvesand panting ogres were chasing up hills out of villages. And then the story just continues. He goes to another castle an it continues in some splendor, you know. But this little glimpse of this weird, imaginary, ancient Britain, just those few lines sparked a whole world for me. I thought, well, that would be a fun place to put down my novel. I could suddenly see this very inhospitable place --
Charlie Rose: That's a pretty good place -- when you findthat, that's a huge benefit.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes. And that just happens -- I go location hunting because I told you I go about things backwards. It's a stupid way to write novels, but I get a story, I don't have a location, I don't have a setting, and sometimes you ask why 10 years -- sometimes it takes a long time to find the right setting.
Charlie Rose: Yes. How long did it take you to find the setting in this case?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Well, It took a long time. I did actually think about sci-fi settings -- a galaxy far away.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Kazuo Ishiguro: But that's why having -- sometimes you come across something and just a few lines spark up a whole world like that, you know. I particularly like the banality of the panting ogres.
Charlie Rose: The banality.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes, there's no surprise. The poem doesn't say, you know what -- there were ogres. No, it's just a nuisance. These ogres, you know, made life very inconvenient. They were like, you know, not very friendly bulls that you encounter when you're walking across a farm field. That's the way -- so I thought, well, I'll have that. In my world, there will just be ordinary things in the background.
Charlie Rose: It is said that your wife, when she first read the book, hated it. Is that fair?
Kazuo Ishiguro: This is what you're getting at when youwanted to know why it took ten years. I'm giving these serious literary responses, you want the simple human answer. No, you're right. She didn't hate it. She didn't hate.For encouragement, you know, I'd done a lot of work, I found the setting. I've worked everything out. So I'm quite a way into it by the time I write the --
Charlie Rose: Right, right.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I'd written about 60 or 70 pages and Ithought, you know, even I sometimes, although usually Iwork alone, I need a little bit of encouragement like everybody else. I thought my wife, Lorna, would give it to me.So I showed it to her and she said "You're going to have tojust start again from scratch.
Charlie Rose: And how was that moment between the two of you?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Well, it was a little bit awkward.
Charlie Rose: You'll have to start over from scratch?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes. What she was saying is I'm not saying you have to alter the character or change a little bit. Not a word of this can survive. But she did say you don't have to abandon the idea. The concepts, the ideas are very interesting.
Charlie Rose: But you have to start over.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes, not a word. The execution is all wrong.You're going to have to start from scratch. And, so, but I don't mind this too much because --
Charlie Rose: Did you take it seriously?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes, I did take it seriously. I put it to one side.I wrote another book. I wrote a book of short stories for nocturnes. I had a couple of movies to worry about. I wrote some song lyrics for the jazz (ph) and Stacy Kent. I did these other things. And then -- but I always knew I'd come back to this. This happens to me a lot. It never let me go. I had to attempt three times. There are two abandoned versions of that book back in the 90s. And so now I got to a stage where --
Charlie Rose: But they build on each other don't they. I mean --
Kazuo Ishiguro: They build on each other.
Charlie Rose: You didn't just abandon them. But you didn't throw it in the ocean.
Kazuo Ishiguro: No, I never actually abandon -- I neverabandon anything, actually, because I have this kind ofstrange maybe naive confidence that if I come back to it,something that was wrong before would have gone away, and there will be a solution that hadn't occurred to me the first time around, second time around. That will present itself, and that's been my experience. Never let me go, it was only the third time around that I came upon what you might call the sci-fi, that this should be a story about young people who had actually been harvested as clones for organ donation. That wasn't there in my first two attempts. I was trying very hard to contrive some way in which young people could go through the experience of old people, you know, that they could go through the struggles of the whole thing of becoming middle aged and old and getting sick and dying and asking all the questions that people do over a larger life span. I wanted to find some way in which they could do this in 28, 30 years. And I just couldn't do it before. But then, you know, this jigsaw -- piece of the jigsaw presented itself.
Charlie Rose: If you could have been a great musician, would you have preferred that to a great novelist?
Kazuo Ishiguro: That's a very difficult question.
Charlie Rose: Because?
Kazuo Ishiguro: Because I still love music. And of course, when you're no allowed to do something, you know, because I wanted to be a -- not really a musician. I wanted to be a great song writer.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I love songs. Not a composer. That's too grand. I love, you know, the three-minute, four-minute, two-minute song. You know, a beautiful emotion or a world contained just in a song with all these dimensions -- lyrics, performance, the music, the orchestration. I think a song is a wonderful thing. If I could have been a song writer, I might (inaudible) it. A novelist isn't a bad thing. It just -- it takes ten years to write a novel rather than a year.
Charlie Rose: Why does it have to be either/or? Because they're both so demanding?
Kazuo Ishiguro: It doesn't have to be either/or in theory, butin practice I'm not a very good song writer, you know.
Charlie Rose: You know. You're great writer. You don't know whether you're a good song writer.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I think I'm not a bad lyricist. But I work with Jim Tomlinson, Stacy Kent's band leader, saxophonist and husband. He writes all the music.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Kazuo Ishiguro: I mean -- I guess also as I got older -- as I got older, you know, when I was in my mid 20s, when I movedfrom songs to short fiction to novels, I started to feel thatthere were certain things I wanted to do that I couldn't do in song, but, nevertheless, I think many of the things that mark me as a novelist today -- my style, my priorities -- theyderive directly from my decisions that I made about songwriting. I think somewhere in the back of my head, I'm still writing a song. This is why I like first person narrative so much. Somewhere I think a novel like "Never Let Me Go" or "Remains of the Day", they're like songs, it's just one -- songs -- not like big band songs. They're like something a guy with an acoustic guitar or a woman with an acoustic guitar singing to about 17 people in a New York coffee house.
Charlie Rose: That's in your mind.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Yes. That's kind of in my mind. I want that kind of intimate thing. That kind of -- almost like a confessional thing, somebody's telling the story of their life to a small audience in an intimate setting. That's why I love a certain kind of first person actor.
Charlie Rose: Can you play acoustic guitar?
Kazuo Ishiguro: I'm not a bad guitarist. I can play many styles -- jazz, folk, I can play (inaudible), blues. I can play bad piano.But as I say, I'm not interested in being -- well, I wouldn't mind being Eric Clapton or B.B. King, but it's not that kind of guitar. For me, a guitar is something that helps pin down a song. It's a good instrument for songs because it holds down rhythm, harmony and melody at the same time. It's a great accompanying instrument for a song.
Charlie Rose: What's interesting about the conversation in the guitar and lyrics and song writing and music is I have afriend who's a brilliant writer. He has a son and his son has been almost a prodigy at a series of things -- really good at chess, games and things like that. He now is in college and has become obsessed, which happened right before he went to college, with the guitar. I thought that's a strange thing, to be obsessed with the guitar, having done and excelled in so many things. And you helped me understand it. It's the complexity that gives you the great challenge.
Kazuo Ishiguro: Well, I don't know what kind of guitar he'sinterested in, but there is something about a guitar that itjust implies all the other stuff. You know, it implies a whole orchestra.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Kazuo Ishiguro: It's a very good instrument for that. There is something about a piano that it's almost a substitute for an orchestra, whereas a guitar has six strings, it has to just simply to imply. It's like a little tiny brush work -- you know, one of those Japanese brush work things. A few lines implies a whole world or like a haiku. So I think that may be your friend's son, maybe that's what he kinds fascinating. You just arrange a few little chords, a few harmonies in this kind of way and suddenly it implies a whole kind of orchestration.
Charlie Rose: It's great to have you here.
Kazuo Ishiguro: It's lovely to be back as always.
Charlie Rose: "The Buried Giant" is the title of the novel, Kazuo Ishiguro. Thank you for joining us.
Born in Nagasaki, Japan, in 1954, Kazuo Ishiguro moved to England with his family when he was five.
Ishiguro studied creative writing at the University of East Anglia, going on to publish his first novel, A Pale View of the Hills, in 1982. He has been a full-time writer ever since.
He has written eight books, the most recent of which, The Buried Giant, was published in 2015.
His third novel, The Remains of the Day, published in 1989, won Ishiguro a Booker prize and world renown. In 1993, it was turned into an Academy Award-nominated film starring Anthony Hopkins.
Ishiguro has also written a number of screenplays, including The White Countess and The Saddest Music in the World, as well as other short stories.
The Remains of the Day
The Remains of the Day tells, in the first person, the story of Stevens, a butler serving an English lord in the years leading up to World War II. Stevens recalls his life in the form of a diary while the action progresses through to the present.
Never Let Me Go
Never Let Me Go is a melancholy dystopian love story set in a British boarding school.
《华盛顿邮报》书评家乔纳森·雅德利（Jonathan Yardley）称这部书为“在《长日留痕》之后石黑一雄写过最好的小说”。这是一部关乎人性的小说：人性的构建、人性的意义、人性是如何被赋予荣光或予以否定的（what constitutes it, what it means, how it can be honored or denied）。
The Buried Giant
The Buried Giant is set immediately after Arthurian Britain. It begins as a couple set off across a troubled land of mist and rain in the hope of finding a son they have not seen in years.
Sometimes savage, often intensely moving, Kazuo Ishiguro's first novel in nearly a decade is about lost memories, love, revenge, and war.
代表作有《I wish i could go travelling again》、《The Changing Lights》、《The Summer We Crossed Europe In The Rain》等。
石黑一雄跟上海也有一定的渊源，他在小说《上海孤儿》（When We Were Orphans）中讲述了一个在上海出生的英格兰侦探于1930年代重返上海去侦破他父母失踪的罪案的故事。在战争的阴霾之下，他找寻着他父母一生留下的线索。石黑一雄后来回到上海创作墨臣·艾禾里电影公司的《伯爵夫人》（The White Countess）（2005）的剧本，该影片讲述了双目失明的美国外交家（拉尔夫·费因斯饰）和一位因政治风波被困上海、以有偿伴舞为生的白俄流亡者（娜塔莎·里查德森饰）的故事。