克里希那穆提论觉察7
来自: jeff_tianjin(逆境是长节,会长出新的竹子来)
BANGALORE 7TH PUBLIC TALK 15TH AUGUST, 1948 班加罗尔演讲(第七次),1948年8月15日 I think by understanding relationship we shall understand what we mean by independence. Life is a process of constant movement in relationship, and without understanding relationship we shall bring about confusion and struggle and fruitless effort. So, it is important to understand what we mean by relationship; because, out of relationship society is built, and there can be no isolation. There is no such thing as living in isolation. That which is isolated soon dies. 我想通过了解关系,我们会了解我们所指的自立是什么。生活是个在关系中不断运动的过程,如果不了解关系,我们只能带来混乱、挣扎和毫无结果的努力。因此,了解关系很重要;因为社会是建立在关系的基础上的,没有孤立的社会。没有孤立生活这件事。孤立的事物很快会死亡。 So, our problem is not what is independence, but what we mean by relationship. In understanding relationship, which is the conduct between human beings whether intimate or foreign, whether close or far away, we shall begin to understand the whole process of existence and the conflict between bondage and independence. So, we must very carefully examine what we mean by relationship. Is not relationship at present a process of isolation, and therefore a constant conflict? The relationship between you and another, between you and your wife, between you and society, is the product of this isolation. By isolation I mean that we are all the time seeking security, gratification and power. After all, each one of us in our relationship with another is seeking gratification; and where there is search for comfort, for security, whether it be a nation or an individual, there must be isolation, and that which is in isolation invites conflict. Any thing that resists is bound to produce conflict between itself and that which it is resisting; and since most of our relationship is a form of resistance we create a society which inevitably breeds isolation and hence conflict within and without that isolation. So, we must examine relationship as it actually works in our lives. After all, what I am - my actions, my thoughts, my feelings, my motives, my intentions - brings about that relationship between myself and another which we call society. There is no society without this relationship between two people; and before we can talk about independence, wave the flag, and all the rest of it, we have to understand relationship, which means we must examine ourselves in our relationship with another. 因此,我们的问题不是什么是自立,而是什么是我们所说的自立。在了解关系时,即了解人们之间的行为,不论他们是亲密的或是陌生的,近或远,我们应该开始了解存在的整个过程,以及束缚和自立的冲突。因此,我们必须仔细检查我们所说的关系指的是什么。现在的关系是不是一个孤立,并且不断冲突的过程?你和他人,和你的妻子,和社会的关系都是这种孤立的产物。我说的孤立,意思是我们总是寻求安全感、满足感和权力。毕竟,我们每个人在我们和他人的关系中都寻找满足;不论是寻找舒适、安全感,不论是国家或个人,一定会产生孤立,而处在孤立中时,冲突就产生了。任何抗拒的事物必定产生冲突;既然我们大部分的关系是某种形式的抗拒,我们就制造了滋生孤立和冲突的社会。因此,我们必须检查我们生活中的关系的真相。毕竟,我是什么 – 我的行为、思想、感受、动机、意图 – 带来我和他人的关系,即社会。没有不存在关系的社会,因此在我们要谈论自立,挥舞旗帜之前,必须了解关系,即必须检查我们和他人的关系中的自我。 Now, if we examine our life, our relationship with another, we will see that it is a process of isolation. We are really not concerned with another; though we talk a great deal about it, actually we are not concerned. We are related to someone only as long as that relationship gratifies us, as long as it gives us a refuge, as long as it satisfies us. But the moment there is a disturbance in the relationship which produces discomfort in ourselves, we discard that relationship. In other words, there is relationship only as long as we are gratified. This may sound harsh, but if you really examine your life very closely, you will see it is a fact; and to avoid a fact is to live in ignorance, which can never produce right relationship. So, if we look into our lives and observe relationship, we see it is a process of building resistance against another, a wall over which we look and observe the other; but we always retain the wall and remain behind it, whether it be a psychological wall, a material wall, an economic wall, or a national wall. As long as we live in isolation, behind a wall, there is no relationship with another; and we live enclosed because it is much more gratifying, we think it is much more secure. The world is so disruptive, there is so much sorrow, so much pain, war, destruction, misery, that we want to escape and live within the walls of security of our own psychological being. So, relationship with most of us is actually a process of isolation, and obviously such relationship builds a society which is also isolating. That is exactly what is happening throughout the world: You remain in your isolation and stretch your hand over the wall, calling it nationalism, brotherhood or what you will; but actual, sovereign governments, armies, continue. That is, clinging to your own limitations, you think you can create world unity, world peace - which is impossible. As long as you have a frontier, whether national, economic, religious, or social, it is an obvious fact that there cannot be peace in the world. 那么,如果我们检查我们的生活,我们和他人的关系,我们会看到这是个孤立的过程。我们互相不关心,尽管我们说得很多,实际上我们互相不关心。只有当满足我们,只有我们拥有庇护所,只有我们满意的时候,才和他人产生关系。但是当在这种关系中产生干扰,即我们产生不舒服,我们就抛开这个关系。换句话说,我们的关系只能延续到使我们得到满足。这听起来有点刺耳,但是如果你仔细检查你的生活,你会看到这是事实;逃避事实就是在无明中生活,无明不会产生正确的关系。因此,如果我们检查我们的生活,观察我们的关系,我们会看到这是一个互相排斥的过程,我们通过一堵墙互相观察对方;但是我们总在墙的一侧,不论是心理的,物质的,经济的,或者国家的墙。只要我们生活在孤立中,生活在墙的后面,就不会和他人产生关系;我们孤立地生活,因为这样令我们满足,我们觉得这样更安全。世界在分裂,有这么多的痛苦、烦恼、战争、毁灭,我们想要逃避,生活在自我的心理之墙的后面。因此,对我们大部分人来说,关系就是一个孤立的过程,显然这种关系也制造了一个孤立的社会。这是世界上确实发生的事情:你保持在自己的孤立中,你从墙上伸出你的手,然后称这是国家主义、兄弟关系等;但实际上主权政府、军队仍然存在。也就是说,执着于你自己的局限的同时,你认为你创造了世界团结,世界和平 – 这是不可能的。只要你有疆界,不论是国家的、经济的、宗教的或社会的,显然不可能有世界的和平,这是一个事实。 Now, the process of isolation is a process of the search for power; and whether one is seeking power individually or for a racial or national group, there must be isolation, because the very desire for power, for position, is separatism. After all, that is what each one wants, is it not? He wants a powerful position in which he can dominate, whether at home, in the office, or in a bureaucratic regime. Each one is seeking power, and in seeking power he will establish a society which is based on power, military, industrial, economic, and so on - which again is obvious. Is not the desire for power in its very nature isolating? I think it is very important to understand this; because, the man who wants a peaceful world, a world in which there are no wars, no appalling destruction, no catastrophic misery, on an immeasurable scale, must understand this fundamental question, must he not? As long as the individual seeks power, however much or however little, whether as a prime minister, as a governor, a lawyer, or merely as a husband or a wife in the home, that is, as long as you desire the sense of domination, the sense of compulsion, the sense of building power, influence, surely you are bound to create a society which is the result of an isolating process; because, power in its very nature is isolating, is separating. A man who is affectionate, who is kindly, has no sense of power, and therefore such a man is not bound to any nationality, to any flag. He has no flag. But the man who is seeking power in any form, whether derived from bureaucracy or from the self-projection which he calls God, is still caught in an isolating process. If you examine it very carefully, you will see that the desire for power in its very nature is a process of enclosure. Each one is seeking his own position, his own security, and as long as that motive exists, society must be built on an isolating process. Where there is the search for power, there is a process of isolation, and that which is isolated is bound to create conflict. That is exactly what is happening throughout the world: each group is seeking power and thereby isolating itself, and this is the process of nationalism, of patriotism, ultimately leading to war and destruction. 孤立的过程就是一个追求权力的过程;不论是个人权利或种族、国家权利,一定有孤立,因为对权力、职位的渴望是导致分裂的。毕竟,这是我们每个人想要的,是不是?人们想要一个有权力的地位,掌控他人,不论在家、在办公室或在政府。每个人都在追求权力,在追求当中,他建立了一个基于权力、军队、工业、经济等的社会 – 这是显然的。对权力的渴望的本质不是孤立吗?我认为了解这一点很重要;因为对于一个想要和平、没有战争、没有毁灭、没有痛苦的灾难、没有巨大的创伤的社会,我们必须了解根本的问题,是不是?只要个人追求权力,不论是大的或小的,不论是首相或州长、律师,丈夫或妻子,也就是说,只要你追求掌控、强制、权力、影响,你就一定会制造一个孤立的社会;因为,权力的本质就是孤立,是分裂。一个充满同情心的人,一个善良的人,没有权力欲望,因此这样的人不会受到国家主义、旗帜的束缚。他没有旗帜。但是一个追求权力的人,不论什么形式的权力,不论是政府官僚或出于保护自我,即他所称的上帝,都一定陷于孤立的过程。如果你仔细检查,你会看到对权力的渴望的本质是孤立、分裂。每个人追求自己的地位、安全感,只要这种动机存在,社会一定是建立在不断分裂的过程当中。在追求权力的地方,就有孤立的过程,孤立一定制造冲突。这恰恰是全世界正在发生的事情:每个组织都在追求权力,因此孤立自己,这是国家主义或爱国主义的过程,并最终导致战争或毁灭。 Now, without relationship, there is no possibility of existence in life; and as long as relationship is based on power, on domination, there must be the process of isolation, which inevitably invites conflict. There is no such thing as living in isolation - no country, no people, no individual, can live in isolation; yet because you are seeking power in so many different ways, you breed isolation. The nationalist is a curse because through his very nationalistic, patriotic spirit, he is creating a wall of isolation. He is so identified with his country that he builds a wall against another. And what happens, Sirs, when you build a wall against something? That something is constantly beating against your wall. When you resist something, the very resistance indicates that you are in conflict with the other. So nationalism. which is a process of isolation, which is the outcome of the search for power, cannot bring about peace in the world. The man who is a nationalist and talks of brotherhood is telling a lie, he is living in a state of contradiction. 生命的存在离不开关系;只要这种关系是建立在权力、掌控的基础上,就是个孤立的过程,必然导致冲突。没有在孤立生活这一回事 – 国家、人民、个人都不能在孤立中生活;可是因为你追求权力,你制造了孤立。国家主义是个魔咒。因为这种国家主义、爱国主义的精神,你滋养了孤立。认同了国家就建立了一道和他人对抗的墙。当你建立了一道墙时会发生什么,先生们?墙里的事物不断和墙发生冲突。当你排斥某事物,排斥本身表示你和他人的冲突。因此,国家主义,是一种形式的孤立,是渴望权力的产物,不会带来世界的和平。国家主义者和谈论兄弟关系的人在说谎,他生活在矛盾中。 So, peace in the world is essential, otherwise we will be destroyed; a few may escape, but there will be greater destruction than ever before unless we solve the problem of peace. Peace is not an ideal; an ideal, as we discussed, is fictitious. What is actual must be understood, and that understanding of the actual is prevented by the fiction which we call an ideal. The actual is that each one is seeking power, titles, positions of authority, and so on - all of which is covered up in various forms by well meaning words. This is a vital problem, it is not a theoretical problem nor one that can be postponed - it demands action now, because the catastrophe is obviously coming. If it does not come tomorrow, it will come next year, or soon after, because the momentum of the isolating process is already here; and he who really thinks about it must tackle the root of the problem, which is the individual's search for power, creating the power-seeking group, race, and nation. 因此,世界和平很重要,否则我们会被摧毁;几个人可能逃避,但是会有更大的摧毁,除非我们能解决和平的问题。和平不是个理想;我们讨论的理想是虚妄的。必须了解实相,这种对实相的了解被我们称作理想的神话阻碍了。实相是每个人追求权力、头衔、权威的地位等 – 所有这些都带着美好的字眼。这是一个严重的问题,不是理论问题,也不能再推迟不解决 – 必须立刻行动,因为灾难显然已经到来。如果明天不来,明年或者稍晚会来,因为孤立的过程的势能已经存在;解决这个问题必须从根本上解决,个人对权力的追求制造了追求权力的组织、种族和国家。 Now, can one live in the world without the desire for power, for position, for authority? Obviously one can. One does it when one does not identify oneself with something greater. This identification with something greater - the party, the country, the race, the religion, God - is the search for power. Because you in yourself are empty, dull, weak, you like to identify yourself with something greater. That desire to identify yourself with something greater is the desire for power. That is why nationalism, or any communal spirit, is such a curse in the world; it is still the desire for power. So, the important thing in understanding life, and therefore relationship, is to discover the motive that is driving each one of us; because what that motive is, the environment is. That motive brings either peace or destruction in the world. And so it is very important for each one of us to be aware that the world is in a state of misery and destruction, and to realize that if we are seeking power, consciously or unconsciously, we are contributing to that destruction, and therefore our relationship with society will be a constant process of conflict. 一个人生活在世界上是否能不追求权力、职位、权威呢?显然是能的。当人们不再与更强大的事物认同的时候。这种认同,不论你是认同政党、国家、种族或宗教、上帝,都是在追求权力。因为,你自己是空虚的、迟钝的、虚弱的,因此你希望认同于更强大的事物。这种认同就是追求权力的欲望。因为,国家主义,或任何形式的分裂,都是世界的魔咒;这些都是对权力的追求。因此,重要的事情是了解生命,了解关系就是发现我们每个人的动机;拥有什么样的动机,就拥有什么样的世界,是和平的世界或者毁灭的世界。因此对于我们每个人来说,觉察到世界存在的痛苦和毁灭是很重要的,而如果我们追求权力,不论是有意识或无意识的,我们都在帮助制造毁灭,因此我们和世界的关系将会是一个不断冲突的过程。 There are multiple forms of power, it is not merely the acquisition of position and wealth. The very desire to be something is a form of power, which brings isolation and therefore conflict; and unless each one understands the motive, the intention of his actions, mere government legislation is of very little importance, because the inner is always overcoming the outer. You may outwardly build a peaceful structure but the men who run it will alter it according to their intention. That is why it is very important, for those who wish to create a new culture, a new society, a new state, first to understand themselves. In becoming aware of oneself. of the various inward movements and fluctuations, one will understand the motives, the intentions, the perils that are hidden; and only in that awareness is there transformation. Regeneration can come about only when there;s cessation of this search for power; and then only can we create a new culture, a society which will not be based on conflict, but on understanding. Relationship is a process of self revelation, and without knowing oneself, the ways of one's own mind and heart, merely to establish an outward order, a system , a cunning formula, has very little meaning. So, what is important is to understand oneself in relationship with another. Then relationship becomes, not a process of isolation, but a movement in which you discover your own motives, your own thoughts, your own pursuits; and that very discovery is the beginning of liberation, the beginning of transformation. It is only this immediate transformation that can bring about the fundamental, radical revolution in the world which is so essential. Revolution within the walls of isolation is not a revolution. Revolution comes only when the walls of isolation are destroyed, and that can take place only when you are no longer seeking power. 有各种形式的权利,不单单是攫取地位和财富。想成为什么的愿望也是一种权力,带来孤立和冲突;除非每个人了解他行为的动机、意图,政府立法并不重要,因为内在总是克服外在。你可能建立一个外在的和平的结构,但是管理这个结构的人会按照自己的意图改变它。因此,那些想要建立一个新文化、新社会、新国家的人首先必须了解自己。觉察到自己的各种思维活动,了解他的动机、意图、潜藏的危险:只有这样的觉察才会带来根本的转变。只有停止追求权力才会转变;只有这时才会建立一个没有冲突,只有了解的文化、社会。关系是一个自我了解的过程,如果不了解自己的心意的活动方式,仅仅建立一个外在的秩序、一个聪明的模式是没有多大意义的。因此,重要的是了解自己和他人的关系。这时关系不是变成一种孤立的过程,而是了解自我的动机、思想和追求的活动;这个了解就是解脱的开始,转变的开始。这种当下的转变才能给世界带来根本的转变。围墙内的革命不是革命。只有彻底摧毁孤立之墙的时候革命才发生,只有当你不再追求权力的时候才能彻底摧毁孤立之墙。 I have several questions, and I will try to answer as many of them as possible. 我得到一些问题,我会回答尽可能多的问题。 Question: Can I remain a government official if I want to follow your teachings? The same question would arise with regard to so many professions. What is the right solution to the problem of livelihood? 问:如果我遵循你的教诲,我是否能还做一名政府官员?这个问题涉及其他很多职业。生计的问题的解决之道是什么? Krishnamurti: Sirs, what do we mean by livelihood? It is the earning of one's needs, food clothing and shelter, is it not? The difficulty of livelihood arises only when we use the essentials of life - food, clothing and shelter - as a means of psychological aggression. That is, when see the needs, the necessities, as a means of self-aggrandizement, then the problem of livelihood arises and our society is essentially based, not on supplying the essentials, but on psychological aggrandizement, using the essentials as a psychological expansion of oneself. Sirs, you have to think it out a little bit. Obviously, food, clothing and shelter could be produced abundantly, there is enough scientific knowledge to supply the demand; but the demand for war is greater, not merely by the warmongers, but by each one of us, because each one of us is violent. There is sufficient scientific knowledge to give man all the necessities; it has been worked out, and they could be produced so that no man would be in need. Why does it not happen? Because no one is satisfied with food, clothing and shelter, each one wants something more; and, put in different words, the "more" is power. But it would be brutish merely to be satisfied with needs. We will be satisfied with needs in the true sense, which is freedom from the desire for power, only when we have found the inner treasure which is imperishable. which you call God, truth, or what you will. if you can find those imperishable riches within yourself, then you are satisfied with few things, which few things can be supplied. 克:先生们,我们指的生计是什么?是满足自己需要的食物、衣物和住所,不是吗?只有我们把生活作为一种心理侵略的途径时,生活才成为一个问题。也就是说,视生活为自我扩张的手段时生活才成为问题,我们的社会不是基于满足基本的生活需要,而是将生活的需要作为一种满足心理扩张的手段。先生们,你们必须多考虑一下。显然,食物、衣物和住所可以充裕地生产,科学知识也使得我们能够充分提供这些生活必需品;但是对战争的要求更严重,不仅战争贩子要求战争,你和我们每个人也要求战争,因为我们每个人都是充满暴力的。有充分的科学知识给我们生活必需品,这些是办得到的,是可以使得每个人的基本需要都得到满足的。那么为什么没有实现呢?因为没有人满足于基本的食物、衣物和住所,每个人都想要更多;换句话说,“更多”就是权力。但是,如果仅仅满足基本生活需要显得低级。我们需要真正意义地满足我们的需要,这就是从对权力的渴望中摆脱出来,只有我们了解了内在的财富的时候才能摆脱对权力的渴望,这种内在的财富是永远不会消失的,你称它为上帝、真理等。如果你能从内心发现这些永不消失的财富,你就会满足于为数不多的生活物品,而这是可以得到满足的。 But, unfortunately, we are carried away by sensate values. The values of the senses have become more important than the values of the real. After all, our whole social structure, our present civilization, is essentially based on sensate values. Sensate values are not merely the values of the senses, but the values of thought, because thought is also the result of the senses; and when the mechanism of thought, which is the intellect, is cultivated, then there is in us a predominance of thought, which is also a sensory value. So, as long as we are seeking sensate value, whether of touch, of taste, of smell, of perception, or of thought, the outer becomes far more significant than the inner; and the mere denial of the outer is not the way to the inner. You may deny the outer and withdraw from the world into a jungle or a cave and there think of God; but that very denial of the outer, that thinking of God, is still sensate, because thought is sensate; and any value based on the sensate is bound to create confusion - which is what is happening in the world at the present time. The sensate is dominant, and as long as the social structure is built on that, the means of livelihood becomes extraordinarily difficult. 但是,不幸的是,我们的感官价值左右了我们。感官价值已经变得比真正的价值更重要。毕竟,整个社会结构,我们的当今的文明基本上是建立在感官价值上的。感官价值不仅是满足我们的感官,并且还包括思想的价值,因为思想也是感官的产物;当培养了思想的机制,即智力,思想价值,即感官价值,就在我们心中占据了压倒性的地位。因此只要我们追求感官价值,不论是触摸、品尝、闻、看或想,外在就比内在变得重要得多;而仅仅抵制外在不会导向内在。你可能拒绝外在,从世界上退出到森林或洞穴中隐居,在那里思维上帝;但是抵制外在和思维上帝本身,仍然是感官价值,因为思维是感官的;而基于任何感官的价值都必定导致混乱 –这是当今世界正在发生的事情。感官主导一切,只要世界结构以此为基础,生计的手段就变得异常困难。 So, what is the right means of livelihood? This question can be answered only when there is a complete revolution in the present social structure, not according to the formula of the right or of the left, but a complete revolution in values which are not based on the sensate. Now, those who have leisure, like the older people who are drawing their pensions, who have spent their earlier years seeking God or else various forms of destruction, if they really gave their time, their energy, to finding out the right solution, then they would act as a medium, as an instrument for bringing about revolution in the world. But they are not interested. They want security. They have worked so many years for their pensions, and they would like to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. They have time, but they are indifferent; they are only concerned with some abstraction which they call God, and which has no reference to the actual; but their abstraction is not God, it is a form of escape. And those who fill their lives with ceaseless activity are caught in the middle, they have not the time to find the answers to the various problems of life. So, those who are concerned with these things, with bringing about a radical transformation in the world through the understanding of themselves, in them alone is there hope. 那么什么是正当的谋生之道呢?这个问题只有当当今社会结构发生彻底革命的时候才能回答,这种革命不是基于左派或右派的模式,而是一种基于非感官价值的彻底革命。现在,那些有闲暇的人退休的人,早年追寻上帝或其他导致毁灭的人,如果花费时间和经历,寻找正确的解决之道,那么他们可以带来世界的真正的革命。但是它们不感兴趣。他们想要安全感。他们工作了这么多年才获得养老金,他们想要舒舒服服地度过余生。他们有时间,可是他们漠不关心;他们只关心一些抽象的概念,比如他们称为上帝的事物,而这并非是本质的上帝,而只是一种逃避。忙忙碌碌的人没有时间寻找生命的各种问题的答案。因此,只有那些真正关心这些问题,根本改变自我的人才能找到希望。 Sirs, surely we can see what is a wrong profession. To be a soldier, a policeman, a lawyer, is obviously a wrong profession, because they thrive on conflict, on dissension; and the big business man, the capitalist, thrives on exploitation. The big business man may be an individual, or it may be the State; if the State takes over big business it does not cease to exploit you and me. And as society is based on the army, the police, the law, the big business man, that is, on the principle of dissension, exploitation and violence, how can you and I, who want a decent, right profession, survive? There is increasing unemployment, greater armies, larger police forces with their secret service, and big business is becoming bigger and bigger, forming vast corporations which are eventually taken over by the State; for the State has become a great corporation in certain countries. Given this situation of exploitation, of a society built on dissension, how are you going to find a right livelihood? It is almost impossible, is it not? Either you will have to go away and form with a few people a community, a self-supporting, cooperative community - or merely succumb to the vast machine. But you see, most of us are not interested in really finding the right livelihood. Most of us are concerned with getting a job and sticking to it in the hope of advancement with more and more pay. Because each one of us wants safety, security, a permanent position, there is no radical revolution. It is not those who are self-satisfied, contented, but only the adventurous, those who want to experiment with their lives, with their existence, who discover the real things, a new way of living. 先生们,当然我们可以看到什么是不正当的行业。士兵、警察、律师显然是不正当的行业,因为他们靠冲突,靠争或谋利;大商人、资本家靠剥削获利。大商人可能是个人或国家;如果国家掌握大的商业,它不会停止剥削你我。而由于社会是建立在军队、警察、法律、大商人的基础上,也就是说,建立在争执、剥削、暴力的基础上,你和我,想要一个正当的、正确的行业,怎么才能生存?有持续的失业、更大的军队、更大的肩负秘密使命的警察,越来越大的并最终由国家接管的商业;因为某些国家已经成为大公司。处在这种剥削的环境中,处在这种争斗的社会中,你怎么才能找到正当的行业呢?几乎是不可能的,是不是?你或者离开,和几个人建立一个社区,一个依靠自己的合作的社区 – 或者屈从于大机器。但是你看,我们大部分人对于找到正确的行业没有兴趣。大部分人只关心找到一个工作,获得晋升和挣更多的钱。因为我们每个人都想要安全,持久的地位,因此不会有彻底的革命。自我满足安于现状的人不会找到新的生活方式,只有少数敢于冒险的人才用自己的生命做实验,才能找到新的生活方式。 So, before there can be a right livelihood, the obviously false means of earning a livelihood must first be seen; the army, the law, the police, the big business corporations that are sucking people in and exploiting them, whether in the name of the State, of capital, or of religion. When you see the false and eradicate the false, there is transformation, there is revolution; and it is that revolution alone that can create a new society. To seek, as an individual, a right livelihood, is good, is excellent, but that does not solve the vast problem. The vast problem is solved only when you and I are not seeking security. There is no such thing as security. When you seek security, what happens? What is happening in the world at the present tine? All Europe wants security, is crying for it, and what is happening? They want security through their nationalism. After all, you are a nationalist because you want security, and you think that through nationalism you are going to have security. It has been proved over and over again that you cannot have security through nationalism, because nationalism is a process of isolation, inviting wars, misery and destruction. So, right livelihood on a vast scale must begin with those who understand what is false. When you are battling against the false. then you are creating the right means of liveli- hood. When you are battling against the whole structure of dissension, of exploitation whether by the left or by the right, or the authority of religion and the priests, that is the right profession at the present time; because, that will create a new society, a new culture. But to battle, you must see very clearly and very definitely that which is false, so that the false drops away. To discover what is false, you must be aware of it, you must observe everything that you are doing, thinking and feeling; and out of that you will not only discover what is false, but out of that there will come a new vitality, a new energy, and that energy will dictate what kind of work to do or not to do. 在有正当的行业之前,显然必须看到不正当的行业;军队、法律、警察、大公司,他们吸人的血液,剥削人,不论是以国家、资本,还是以宗教的名义。当你看到虚假的,并根除虚假,就会有根本的转变,就会有革命;这种革命本身就能创造一个新的社会。作为个人,寻找正当的行业是很好的,但是不会解决巨大的问题。巨大的问题只有当你和我不再寻找安全感。没有安全这一回事。当你追求安全感,发生什么了呢?今天的世界上发生着什么呢?全欧洲都追求安全感,渴望安全感,发生了什么呢?他们想通过国家主义得到安全感,毕竟,你是个国家主义者,因为你想要安全感,你认为通过国家主义,你将会得到安全。已经一次次证明了国家主义不会带来安全感,因为国家主义是孤立的过程,带来战争、痛苦、毁灭。因此,正当的行业必须始于了解什么是不正当的行业。你和不正当的行业斗争时制造了正当的行业。你和由争斗、左派或右派的剥削、宗教和神职人员的权威构成的整个结构进行斗争,目前这就是正当的行业;因为,这会带来一个新的社会,新的文化。但是为了斗争,你必须清楚、彻底地了解什么是不正当的,这样不正当的才会剥离。了解什么是不正当的,你必须觉察它,你必须观察你每时每刻的行为,思考和感受;这时你不但发现了什么是不正当的,而且也会产生一种新的活力,这种活力会确定什么是正当的行业。 Question: Can you state briefly the basic principles on which a new society should be built? 问:你能简单说说新社会建立的基本原则吗? Krishnamurti: I can state the principles, that is very simple; but it would be of no value. What has value is that you and I should discover together the basic principles on which a new society can be built; because, the moment we discover together what are the basic principles, there is a new basis of relationship between us. Do you understand? Then I am no longer the teacher and you the pupil, or you the audience and I the lecturer - we start on a different footing altogether. That means no authority, does it not? We are partners in discovering, and therefore we are in cooperation; therefore, you do not dominate or influence me, nor I you. We are both discovering; and when there is the intention on your part as well as on mine to discover what are the basic principles of a new culture, obviously there cannot be an authoritative spirit, can there? Therefore, we have established, a new principle already, have we not? As long as there is authority in relationship, there is compulsion; and nothing can be created through compulsion. A government that compels, a teacher that compels, an environment that compels, does not bring about relationship, but merely a state of slavery. So, we have discovered one thing together, for we know that we both want to create a new society in which there can be no authority; and that has an enormous significance, because the structure of our present social order is based on authority. The specialist in education, the specialist in medicine, the military specialist, the specialist in law, the bureaucrat - they all dominate us. The Shastras say so, therefore it must be true; my guru says so, therefore it must be right and I am going to follow it. In other words, in a society where there is the search for the real, the search for understanding, the search for the establishment of right relationship between two human beings, there can be no authority. The moment you discard authority, you are in partnership; therefore there is cooperation, there is affection - which is contrary to the present social structure. 克:我可以说明这些基本原则,这很简单;但是这是没有价值的。有价值的是你和我应该一起发现这些新社会建立的基本原则;因为,我们一起发现这些基本原则的时候,我们之间会建立一种新的关系。明白了吗?这时我不再是老师,你也不再是学生,或者说你不再是听众,我不再是演讲者 – 我们处在同一个不同的起点。这意味着没有权威,是不是?在发现这些基本原则时我们是伙伴,是合作的关系;因此,你不会支配或影响我,我也不会支配或影响你。我们一起发现;而且当你或我具有发现新文化的基本原则的意图时,显然不再有权威精神,是不是?因此,我们已经建立了一种新的原则,是不是?只要在关系中存在权威,就有强制性;通过强制性什么也创造不了。强制的政府、老师、环境不会带来新的关系,智慧带来奴役。因此,我们一起发现新事物,因为我们知道我们都想要创造一个新社会,一个没有权威的社会;这是非常重要的,因为我们当今社会的结构是建立在权威的基础上的。教育上的专家,医药领域的专家,军事专家,法律和官僚体制的专家 – 他们支配我们。印度教经典《沙斯陀罗》如此说,因此一定是对的;我的上师如此说,因此一定是对的,我一定遵循。换句话说,在一个追求真相、追求真正了解、追求建立人与人之间的新关系的社会,是没有权威的。你抛弃权威的时刻,你就是个合作者;因此,就会有合作,就会有感情 – 这是与当今的社会结构相反的。 At present, you leave your children to the educator, while the educator himself needs educating. Religiously, you are merely imitative, copying machines. In every direction you are dominated, influenced, compelled, forced; and how can there be a relationship between the exploiter and the exploited, between those who are in power and those who are subject to power - unless you yourself want the same kind of power? If you do, then you are in relationship with that power. But if you see that any desire for power is in itself destructive, then there is no relationship with those who seek power. So, we begin to discover the basic principles upon which a new society can be built. Obviously, relationship based on domination is no longer a relationship. When there is no domination, no authority, no compulsion, what does it mean? Obviously, there is affection, there is tenderness, there is love, there is understanding. For that to take place, domination must disappear. But we can discuss this presently, if you will listen to me. You seem irritated - perhaps I am upsetting your apple cart a little bit; but you will go out and do exactly the same thing that you did before, because you are not really concerned with the finding of a new basic order. You want to be secure, you want your positions, or such positions as you have, and you want to use them for your own purpose, which you call noble; but it is still a form of self-expansion, exploitation. 当今,你把孩子交给教育者,而教育者本身也需要教育。宗教上,你只是模仿、复制的机器。在每个方面,你都是被支配,被影响,被强迫的;在剥削者和被剥削者之间,在占有权力和受权力支配的人之间怎么才能有关系 – 除非你也想要得到这个权力?如果你是这样的,你就和权力产生了真正的关系。但是如果你看到对权力的渴望是具有毁灭性的,就会和追求权力的人之间不会有关系了。因此,我们开始发现建立一个新的社会的基本准则。显然,建立在支配上的关系不再是一种关系。当没有支配、没有权威、没有强迫,这意味着什么?显然意味着感情、柔和、爱、了解。因此,支配必须消失。但是如果你听的话,我们接下来可以一起讨论。我可能让你有所触动;但是当你走出去,会做和以前一样的事情,因为你并不真正关心找到新的社会秩序。你想要得到安全感、地位,或者凭借地位用于个人的目的,你称其为高尚的目的;但是这仍然是一种自我膨胀、剥削的一种形式。 So, our difficulty in these discussions and talks is that we are not very serious about all this. We would like things to be altered, but slowly, gradually, and at our convenience. We don't want to be disturbed too much, so we are not really basically concerned with a new culture. The man who is concerned sees as false the obviously pernicious things such as authority, belief, nationalism, the whole hierarchical spirit. When all that is put aside, what happens? You are merely a citizen, a human being without authority; and when you have no authority, then perhaps you will have love, and therefore, you will have understanding. That is what is required: a group of people who understand, who have affection, whose hearts are not filled with empty words and empty phrases, the things of the mind. It is they who will create a new culture, not the spinner of words. Therefore, it is very important for each one of us to see himself in the mirror of relationship, for out of that alone can there be a new culture. 因此,我们在这些讨论中的问题是我们对此并不认真。我们想要事情改变,但是是缓慢的、渐进的改变,不对我们有不便。我们不想受到太大的扰乱,因此我们基本上不关心新文化。那些真正关心的人看到权威、信仰、国家主义、整个等级知制度的致命处。当把这些抛开,发生什么呢?你只是个公民,一个没有权威的人,当你没有权威,这时可能你会有爱,因此你会了解。这是必须的:一群了解的人,他们有感情,他们的心没有被空洞的文字或者其它心意制造的东西充满。他们会创造一个新文化,而不是夸夸其谈。因此,我们每个人在关系之镜中认识自我非常重要,只有这样才能创造新文化。 Question: What must we do to have really good government, and not merely self-government? 问:我们必须怎么做才能有好的政府,而不仅仅是自我管理? Krishnamurti: Sirs, to have a good government, you must first understand what you mean by government. Don't let us use words without a referent, words without meaning. without something behind them. The word "watch" has a referent, but "good government" has no referent, To find the referent, we will have to discuss what we mean by "government" and what we mean by "good", but merely to say what is good government has no meaning. 克:先生们,要有好政府,你必须首先了解你所谓的政府是指什么。不要使用没有所指之物的词汇,没有意义的词汇,没有内涵的词汇。“手表”这个单词有所指,可是“好政府”没有所指。为了找到所指,我们不得不讨论我们所说的“政府”指的是什么,“好”指的是什么,只说好政府是没有意义的。 So, first, let us find out what we mean by "good". I am not splitting hairs, I am not being school-boyish discussing at a union; because, it is very important to find out what we are talking about, and not merely use words that have little meaning. I know we are fed on words; it creates an impression for, us to talk of having self-government and wave the flag - you know the whole business of being enchanted with words when our hearts and minds are empty. So, let us find out what we mean by "good government". 那么,首先,让我们了解我们所说的“好”是什么。我不是吹毛求吃,我也不是象学生在学生会讨论问题一样;因为了解我们所谈论的是什么是很重要的。我知道我们受够了文字;有这么一个印象,我们经常讨论自制和挥动旗帜 – 你了解当你的心意是空虚的时候,文字的力量。因此,让我们找到我们所谓的“好政府”指的是什么。 What do we mean by "good"? "Good" obviously has a referent based on pleasure and pain. "Good" is that which gives you pleasure, "bad" that which gives you pain, whether outwardly or inwardly, whether inside or outside the skin. That is a fact, is it not? We are discussing the fact, not what you would like it to be. The fact is, as long as you seek pleasure in various forms - as security, as comfort, as power, as money - , that plea- sure is what you call "good", and anything that disturbs the state of pleasure, you call "not good". I am not discussing philosophically. but actually. Pleasure is what you want, so obviously you call "good" that which gives you security, comfort, position, power, safety. Do you follow? That is, "good government, is that body which can supply what you want; and if the government does not give you what you want, you say, "Throw it out" - unless it is a totalitarian government. Even totalitarian governments can be destroyed if the people say, "We don't want this". But nowadays it is almost impossible to bring about physical revolution, because the airplanes and other war machines without which there cannot be modern revolution are in the hands of the government. So, the "good" is what you want, is it not? Sirs, don't let us fool ourselves and spin a lot of words about abstract "good" and abstract "evil". Actually, in your daily life, the fact is that those who give you what you want, you call "good", "noble", "efficient", and so on, using various terms. What you want is gratification in different forms, and that which can give it to you, you call beneficent. 我们所谓的“好”指的是什么呢?“好”显然有所指是建立在喜悦和痛苦上的。“好”是给你喜悦的事物,“坏”是给你痛苦的事物,不论外在还是内在。这是个事实,是不是?我们讨论的是事实,不是希望。事实是,只要我们寻求各种形式的喜悦 – 安全感、舒适、权力、金钱,这时喜悦就是你所谓的“好”,而打扰这种喜悦的就是“不好”。我不是进行哲学上的讨论,而是谈论事实。喜悦是你想要的,因此显然,你把带给你安全感、舒适、地位、权力的东西成为“好”的东西。明白了吗?也就是说,“好政府”就是提供你所要的东西的政府;如果政府不给你你想要的,你会说“不要它”,除非这是个集权政府。如果人们说“我们不想要”,即使是集权政府也会被摧毁。但是现在几乎不可能会发生传统意义上的革命,因为飞机和其他战争武器都在政府手里。因此,“好”就是你想要的,是不是?先生们,不要欺骗自己,谈论抽象的“好”或“坏”。实际上,在你的日常生活中,事实是给你你想要的东西的人,你称他们是“好的”“高尚的”“有效的”等不同的词汇。你想要各种形式的满足,给你你想要的事物,你称之为善行。 So, the government is the body which you create out of your want, is it not? That is, the government is you. What you are, the government is, which is an obvious fact in the world. You hate a particular country, and elect those people who will support your hate. You are communalistically inclined and you create a government that has your communalistic outlook - which is again an obvious fact, we need not elaborate it. Since what you are, your government is, how can you have "good" government? You can have good government only when you have transformed yourselves. Otherwise, the government is merely a bureau, a group of people whom you have elected to supply you with what you want. You say you don't want war, but you encourage all the causes that breed war, like nationalism, communalism, and so on. That being your condition, you create a government, as you create a society, after your own likeness; and having created that government, the government in turn exploits you. So, it is a vicious circle. There can be good - I won't call it "good" - there can be sane government only when you yourself are sane. Sirs, don't smile. It is a fact; we are insane, we are not rational, clean human beings. We are unbalanced, therefore our governments are unbalanced. Do you mean to say, Sirs, that, seeing the whole world caught up in the appalling catastrophe of war and the production of war machines, a sane human being does not want to break it up? Therefore, he will find out what are the causes of war, and not say, "Well, it is my country, I must protect it" - which is too immature and silly. 因此,政府是你根据你的需要创造的机构,是不是?也就是说,政府就是你。你是什么,政府就是什么。这是个显然的事实。你恨某个国家,因此会选举那些和你一样恨某个国家的人。你有地方自治的倾向,因此你选举一个有地方自治看法的政府 – 这也是显然的,我们无需多说。既然,你是什么,政府就是什么,你怎么可能有“好”的政府?只有当你自己发生根本转变的时候才会有好的政府。否则,政府就只是你选举的能够满足你的需要的一群人。你说你不想要战争,但是你鼓励那些滋生战争的事业,比如国家主义、共产主义等。这是你的局限,你按照自己的形象制造政府和社会;制造了政府后,政府反过来剥削你。因此,这是个恶性循环。可能会有好 — 我不称之为“好”,可能有理智的政府,当你自己理智时。先生们,不要笑。这是个事实;我们不理智,我们不是理智的、清白的人。我们颠倒,因此我们的政府也颠倒。先生们,你们想说,看到整个世界陷于可怕的战争灾难,生产战争机器,一个理智的人不愿意打碎它吗?因此,他找到战争的根源,不会说,“好吧,这是我的国家,我必须保护它” – 这是太不成熟和愚蠢的。 Now, one of the causes of war is greed - greed to be something greater - which causes you to identify yourself with the country. You say, "I am a Hindu", "I am a Buddhist", "I am a Christian", "I am a Russian", or what you will. That is one of the causes of war. And a man who is sane says, "I am going to get rid of that insane imitation which ultimately produces destruction". Therefore, We must first create sanity, not a plan for a new government, or a so-called "good" government; and in order to be sane, you must know what you are, you must be aware of yourself. But again, you see, you are not interested. You are interested in waving flags, you are interested in listening to speeches which have no meaning, you are interested stimulation. All these are indications of insanity. And how can you expect a sane government when the citizens are not fully awake when they are half-alert and unbalanced? 战争的根源是贪婪 – 获取更多的贪婪 – 这是你认同国家的原因。你说,“我是印度徒”,“我是佛教徒”,“我是基督徒”,“我是俄国人”等。这是战争的一个原因。理智的人会说,“我会摆脱这种不理智的最终会制造毁灭的模仿”。因此,我们必须首先有理智,而不是计划一个新的政府,或所谓“好”政府;而为了理智,你必须了解你自己,你必须觉察你自己。但是,你看,你对此不感兴趣。你只会挥舞旗帜感兴趣,你只对听无意义的演讲感兴趣,你只会刺激感兴趣。所有这些都是不理智的表现。当公民都不清醒,当他们都是半警觉和颠倒的时候,你怎么可能期待一个理智的政府呢? Sirs, when you yourselves are in confusion, you create the leader who is confused, and you will hear the voice of him who is confused. If you are not confused, if you are clear, tranquil, you will have no leader; if you are clear, you will not wait for the government to tell you what to do. Why does a man want a government? Sirs, some of you smile, and you will push it out. Because you don't know how to love rationally, humanly, you want somebody to tell you what to do; therefore there is the multiplication of laws, laws, and more laws, what you must and must not do. So, it is your fault, Sirs. You are responsible for the government that you have, or are going to have; because, unless you radically transform yourselves, what you are, your government is. If you are communalistically-minded, you will create a government that is like you. And what does it mean? More disturbance, more destruction. 先生们,当你自己混乱的时候,你制造一个混乱的领导人,你听从他的声音。如果你不混乱,你是理智的,平静的,你不需要领导人;如果你清楚,你不用等待政府告诉你做什么。人们为什么想要政府?先生们,有些人笑了。因为你不知道如何理智地、人性地去爱,你才要别人告诉你怎么做;因此,法律才会越来越多,告诉你做什么不做什么。因此,这是你的错误,先生们,你要对你拥有的政府或将要拥有的政府负责,因为除非你彻底改变了自己,你是什么,你的政府就是什么。如果你有地方自治的倾向的心意,你也会制造一个和你类似的政府。这意味着什么?更多的骚动,更多的毁灭。 So, there can be a sane society, a sane world, only when you, as part of that society, that world, are breaking away, that is, becoming sane; and there can be sanity only when you spurn authority, when you are not caught in the nationalistic, patriotic spirit, when you treat human beings as human beings, not as brahmins, or as of any other caste or country. And it is impossible to treat human beings as human beings if you label them, if you term them, if you give them a name as Hindus, Russians, or what you will. It is so much easier to label people, for then you can pass by and kick them, drop a bomb on India or Japan. But if you have no labels, but merely meet people as human beings, then what happens? You have to be very alert, you have to be very wise in your relationship with another. But as you don't want to do that, you create a government befitting yourself. 只有当你自己解脱了,也就是说变得清醒理智,这时才有可能产生理智的社会、理智的世界,因为你是社会、世界的一部分;只有当你抛弃了权威,当你不再局限于国家主义、爱国主义的束缚,当你把别人看做是人类,而不是婆罗门,或任何其他等级或其他国家的人,这时你才会理智。如果你给别人贴上标签,如果你称他们为印度徒、俄国人等,你不可能把别人看做是人类。给别人贴上标签很容易,因为这时你可以经过他们,踢打他们,给印度或日本扔原子弹。但是如果你没有标签,仅仅是把别人当做是人类,这时发生什么?你必须警觉,你必须有智慧地处理和他人的关系。但是你不想这么做,你制造一个对你自己有利的政府。 Question: What is eternal love or death? What happens to love when death breaks its thread? What happens to death when love asserts its claim? 问:什么是永恒的爱和死亡?当爱面对死亡时发生什么?爱对死亡有什么影响? Krishnamurti: Now again, let us find out what we mean by death and what we mean by love. Sorry, some of you get bored with all this. Are you bored? 克:再一次让我们了解死亡是什么,爱是什么。抱歉,你们有些人对这些厌烦了。是不是厌烦了? Audience: No, Sir. 听众:先生,没有。 Krishnamurti: I am surprised, because we have taken up very serious things. Life is serious, life is very earnest. It is only the empty headed and the dull at heart who are trivial, and if you are bored with the serious things of life, it indicates your own immaturity. This is a question with which everyone is concerned, whether it be the totalitarian, the politician, or you; because, death awaits each one of us, whether we like it or not. You may be a high government official, with titles, wealth, position, and a red carpet; but there is this inevitable thing at the end of it. So, what do we mean by death? By death we obviously mean putting an end to continuity, do we not? There is a physical death, and we are a little bit anxious about it; but that does not matter if we can overcome it by continuing in some mother form. So when we ask about death, we are concerned with whether there is continuity or not. And what is the thing that continues? Obviously, not your body because every day we see that people who die are burnt or buried. Therefore, we mean, do we not? a super sensory continuity, a psychological continuity, a thought continuity, a continuity of character, which is termed the soul, or what you will. We want to know if thought continues. That is, I have meditated, I have practiced so many things, I have not finished writing my book, I have not completed my career, I am weak and need time to grow strong, I want to continue my pleasure, and so on; and I am afraid that death will put an end to all that. So, death is a form of frustration, is it not? I am doing something, and I don't want to end it; I want continuity in order to fulfil myself. Now, is there fulfilment through continuity? Obviously, there is fulfilment of a sort through continuity. If I am writing a book, I don't want to die till I have finished it; I want time to develop a certain character, and so on. So, there is fear of death only when there is the desire to fulfil oneself; because to fulfil oneself, there must be time, longevity, continuity. But if you can fulfil yourself from moment to moment, you are not afraid of death. 克:我很惊讶,因为我们将要讨论严肃的问题了。生命是严肃的,真诚的。只有头脑空虚,内心迟钝的人才关心鸡毛蒜皮的小事,如果你对生命力的严肃问题感到厌烦,这只表示你的不成熟。这是每个人都关心的问题,不论是集权主义者、政治家还是你;因为我们每个人都得死亡,不论喜欢与否。你可能是政府高官,有头衔、财富、地位和红地毯;但是最终死亡不可避免。那么,我们说的死亡是指的什么呢?死亡显然是指结束这持续不变的一切,是不是?有身体的死亡,我们对此感到一点焦虑;但是如果我们用其他形式克服它,它有什么关系呢。因此,当我们询问死亡时,我们焦虑的是是否有持续性。那么什么持续不变呢?显然,不是指身体,因为我们天天看到死亡的人被火化埋葬。因此,不是指身体,是不是?超感觉的存在,心理的存在,思维的存在,性格的存在,我们称这些为灵魂等。我们想知道思维是不是永存。也就是说,比如我禅修,我练习了这么多的事情,我还没写完我的著作,我还没完成我的事业,我很虚弱需要时间变得强壮,我想要快乐等;我害怕死亡会结束这一切。因此,死亡是一种挫折,是不是?我正在做某件事,我不想结束它;我想要成就我的事业。那么继续下去是否会有成就呢?显然继续会有某种成就。如果我写一本书,我不想在写完它之前死亡;我想要时间塑造一个人物等。因此,当有成就的愿望时就有了对死亡的恐惧;因为,要成就自己,必须有时间、必须持续下去。但是,如果你时时刻刻当下就成就,你就不会害怕死亡了。 Now, our problem is how to have continuity in spite of death, is it not? And you want an assurance from me; or, if I don't assure you of that, you go to somebody else, to your gurus, to your books, or to various other forms of distraction and escape. So, you listening to me and I talking to you, we are going to find out together what we actually mean by continuity, what it is that continues, and what we want to continue. That which continues is obviously a wish, a desire, is it not? I am not powerful, but I would like to be; I have not built my house, but I would like to build it; I have not got that title, but I would like to get it; I have not amassed enough money but I will do so presently; I would like to find God in this life - and so on and on. So, continuity is the process of want. When this is put an end to, you call it death, do you not? You want to continue desire as a means of achievement, as a process through which to fulfil yourself. Surely, this is fairly simple, is it not? Now, obviously thought continues in spite of your physical death. This has been proved. Thought is a continuity; because, after all, what are you? You are merely a thought, are you not? You are the thought of a name, the thought of a position, the thought of money; you are merely an idea. Remove the idea, remove the thought, and where are you? So, you are an embodiment of thought as the "me". Now, you say thought must continue because thought is going to enable me to fulfil myself, that thought will ultimately find the real. Is that not so? That is why you want thought to continue. You want thought to continue because you think thought is going to find the real, which you call happiness, God, or what you will. 那么,我们的问题是尽管面对死亡仍然保持不变,是不是?你想要从我这里得到保证吗;或者如果我不提供你保证,你去找别人,上师、书本或其他形式,从而得以逃避,或消遣。因此,你听我讲,我给你讲,我们一起发现我们所谓的连续性是指什么,是什么东西具有连续性,我们想要什么东西持续。持续的显然是愿望,是不是?我不强大,但是我想要强大;我没有建好房子,但是我想要建好房子;我没有得到那个头衔,但是我想要得到它;我没有积累财富,但是我想要积累财富;我想要此生发现上帝等。因此,持续性是一种想往的过程。当这些结束时,你称其为死亡,是不是?你想要保持愿望从而获得成就,作为一个成就你自己的过程。当然,这是很简单的,是不是?显然,不论你身体是否死亡,思想仍然会持续。这已经得到证明。思维具有持续性;因为,毕竟,你是什么?你只是思维,是不是?你是关于名字、地位、金钱、观念的思维而已。消除这个观念、思维,你在哪里?因此思维以“我”的形式体现出来。那么你说思维必须持续因为思维会成就我自己,思维会最终发现实相。是不是?这是为什么你想要思维持续下去的原因。你想要思维持续下去,因为你认为思维会发现实相,你称其为幸福、上帝等。 Now, through the continuity of thought, do you find the real? To put it differently, does the thought process discover the real? Do you understand what I mean? I want happiness, and I search for it through various means - property, position, wealth, women, men, or whatever it be. All that is the demand of a thought for happiness, is it not? Now, can thought find happiness? If it can, then thought must have a continuity. But what is thought? Thought is merely the response of memory, is it not? If you had no memory, there would be no thought. You would be in a state of amnesia, of complete blankness - as most people want to be. Thinking mesmerize itself and remains in a certain state which is a state of blankness. But we are not trying to discuss the state of amnesia, we want to find out what thought is. Thought, if you will look at it a little closely, is obviously the response of memory; and memory is the result of an uncompleted experience. So, through an incomplete experience you think you are going to find the complete, the whole, the real. How can it be done? Do you follow what I mean? Sirs, probably you are not thinking this out. You want to know if there is or if there is not continuity, that is all; you want an assurance. When you are seeking an assurance, you are seeking authority, gratification - you don't want to know the real. It is only the real that will liberate, not an assurance, or my giving you that assurance. We are trying to find out what is true in all this. 通过思维的持续性,你发现了实相了吗?换句话说,思维过程是否能发现实相?你明白我说的吗?我想要幸福,我通过各种途径追求幸福 – 财产、地位、财富、女人、男人等。所有这些都是思维认为幸福所必须的,是不是?那么,思维是否能发现幸福呢?如果能,那么思维必须具有连续性。但是,什么是思维?思维只是记忆的反应,是不是?如果你有没有记忆,就不会有思维。你会处于健忘症里,一片空白 – 就像大部分人想要的那样。但是,我们不是要讨论健忘症的状态,我们想要了解什么是思维。思维,如果你仔细观察,显然是记忆的反应;而记忆是未完成的经验的结果。因此,通过未完成的经验,你认为你会发现完满的经验、全部、实相。这怎么做得到呢?你明白我说的吗?先生们,可能你没想明白。你想要知道是否有连续性,这就是全部;你想要得到保证。当你想要得到保证时,你在寻求权威,满足感 – 你不想知道实相。只有实相才能解脱,而不是满足感,或者给你保证。我们正在试图发现这一切的真相。 Since thought is the outcome of an incomplete experience -because you don't remember, in the psychological sense, a complete experience - , how can thought, through its own conditioned, incomplete state, find that which is complete. Do you follow? So, our question is, can there be a renewal, a regeneration, a freshness, a newness, through the continuity of the thought process? After all, if there is renewal, then we are not afraid of death. If for you there is renewal from moment to moment, there is no death. But there is death, and the fear of death, if you demand a continuity of the thought process. It is only thought that can continue, obviously, an idea about yourself. That idea is the outcome of thought, the outcome of a conditioned mind; because thought is the outcome of the past, it is founded on the past. And through time, through continuing the past, will you find the timeless? 既然,思维是未完成的经验的产物 – 因为在心理学意义上你不记得完成的经验,思维如何才能通过自己的未完成的状态发现完满的实相?你明白吗?因此,我们的问题是,通过思维过程的连续性,是否存在一种新生、全新?毕竟,如果有新生,那么我们就不用害怕死亡。如果对你来说时时都是新生,就没有死亡。但是如果你想要得到思维的连续性,就有死亡和对死亡的恐惧。显然,只有思维,即你自己的观念连续着;因为思维是过去的产物,是建立在过去的基础上的。通过时间,过去持续着,你能发现超越时间的事物吗? So, we look to continuity as a means of renewal,as a means of bringing about a new state. Otherwise we don't want continuity, do we? That is, I want continuity only if it promises the new state; otherwise I don't want it, because my present state is miserable. If through continuity I can find happiness, then I want continuity. But can I find happiness through continuity? There is only the continuity of thought, thought being the response of memory; and memory is always conditioned, always in the past. Memory is always dead, it comes to life only through the present. Therefore, thought as a continuity cannot be the means of renewal. So, to continue thought is merely to continue the past in a modified form, and therefore it is not a renewal; therefore, through that passage there is no hope. There is hope only when I see the truth that through continuity there is no renewal. And when I see that, what happens? Then I am only concerned with the ending of the thought process from moment to moment - which is not insanity! The thought process ceases only when I understand the falseness of the thought process as a means of achieving a desirable end, or of avoiding a painful one. When I see the false as the false, the false drops away. When the false drops away, what then is the state of the mind? Then the mind is in a state of high sensitivity, of high receptivity, of great tranquillity, because there is no fear. What happens when there is no fear? There is love, is there not? It is only in the negative state that love can be, not in the positive state. The positive state is the continuity of thought towards an end, and as long as that exists, there cannot be love. 因此,我们将连续性作为一种新生的手段,作为一种带给我们新境界的手段。否则,我们不想要持续性,是不是?也就是说,我想要持续性,只是希望它能带给我们新境界;否则,我不想要它,因为我目前的状态是痛苦的。如果通过持续性,我能发现幸福,那么我就要持续性。但是,我能通过持续性发现幸福吗?只有思维的持续性,而思维只是记忆的反应;记忆总是受限的,总是过去。记忆是死的,它只通过现在存在。因此,思维作为一种持续性不能成为新生的工具。因此,持续思维只是持续一种过去,一种改头换面的过去,因为没有新生;因此,通过这个途径,是没有希望的。只有我看到通过持续性不会有新生这个真相,才有希望。当我看到这个真相,发生什么了呢?我就不会关心思维结束的问题,这是不理智的终结!思维过程只有当我了解把思维作为一种实现某种愿望的手段的假相或者把思维作为一种逃避痛苦的假相时才能终结。当我看到假相是假相,假相就不能欺骗我了。当假相不具有欺骗性,这时的心意是什么状态呢?这时心意是一种高度敏感、高度具有可接受性、高度平静的状态,因为没有恐惧。没有恐惧时发生什么呢?有爱,是不是?只有在这种否定的状态里爱才存在,不是在肯定的状态。肯定的状态是思维被用作实现某种目标的工具的状态,只要这种状态存在,就不存在爱。 The questioner also wants to know what happens to love when death breaks its thread. Love is not a continuity. If you watch yourself, if you observe your own love, you will see that love is from moment to moment, you are not thinking that it must continue. That which continues is a hindrance to love. It is only thought that can continue, not love. You can think about love, and that thought can continue; but the thought about love is not love -and that is your difficulty. You think about love, and you want that thought to continue; therefore you ask, "What happens to love when death comes"? But you are not concerned with love; you are concerned with the thought of love, which is not love. When you love, there is no continuity. It is only the thought that wishes love to continue, but the thought is not love. Sirs, this is very important. When you love, when you really love somebody, you are not thinking, you are not calculating - your whole heart, your whole being is open. But when you merely think about love, or about the person whom you love, your heart is dry - and therefore you are already dead. When there is love, there is no fear of death. Fear of death is merely the fear of not continuing, and when there is love there is no sense of continuity. It is a state of being. 提问者也想要知道当死亡来到时对爱发生了什么事。爱不是一种持续性。如果你观察自己,如果你观察自己的爱,你会看到爱是无时无刻不在的,你不会思考爱是否会持续。持续的只是对爱的妨碍。只有思维,而不是爱,具有持续性。你可以思考爱,这个思考会持续;但是对爱的思考不是爱本身 – 这是你的问题。你思考爱,你想要爱持续;因此,你问,“死亡到来时,爱会发生什么”?但是你不关心爱;你只关心对爱的思考,这不是爱。当你爱的时候,没有持续性。只有思维希望爱持续,但是思维不是爱。先生们,这是很重要的。当你爱的时候,当你真的爱某人,你不思维,你不衡量 – 你的全部身心是敞开的。但是当你思维爱的时候,或者思维你爱的人的时候,你的心是干涸的 – 因此你已经死亡了。当有爱的时候,没有对死亡的恐惧。对死亡的恐惧只是对不连续的恐惧,当有爱的时候,没有连续性。爱是一种存在。 The questioner also asks, "What happens to death when love asserts its claim? "Sirs, love has no claim - and that is the beauty of love. That which is the highest state of negation does not claim, does not demand: it is a state of being. And when there is love, there is no death; there is death only when the thought process arises. When there is love, there is no death, because there is no fear; and love is not a continuous state - which is again the thought process. Love is merely being from moment to moment. Therefore, love is its own eternity. 提问者还想知道,“当爱存在,对死亡发生了什么?”先生们,爱不要求什么 – 这是爱的美。处在最高的否定状态的不要求什么:爱就只是一种存在。当有了爱,没有死亡;只有思维过程生起时,才有死亡。当有了爱,没有死亡,因为没有恐惧;爱不是一种持续的状态 – 持续的状态是思维的过程。爱只是当下。因此,爱本身是永恒的。 August 15, 1948 1948年8月15日
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